Ooh, I get the first swing at this one? Thanks MN pols - I bought the smart ones, and manipulated the dumb ones (aka most of them) with my L.A. shuffle blues. Hahaha, take that, Opat!

Urban planning,--pffft! My partners at the Strib will sell me land nearby and my cotton candy coated development gravy train will hum down those publically funded tracks, baby. 877-stadium-cash-now, yes!

How long will it take for the Vikings to learn from the Twins that a beautiful new facility with a crappy home team means lots of empty seats?

How many games did the Vikings win last year, again?

I suppose you should get run out of that troll handle while it is still (somewhat) relevant.

I don't think you can apply the current Twins attendance "issues" to the Vikings. Football and baseball are two entirely different animals in that regard.

Losing in baseball can be perpetual, whereas a couple of key draft picks can swing the fortunes of a football team immediately. Hope brings football fans back...if they ever leave at all.

There is also the fact the the Vikings have several seasons to get things turned around before the new stadium opens.

I wonder what parts of the new stadium the Vikings players will blame for their losing ways?

"I couldn't catch the ball because it blended into the wall under the scoreboard. We didn't have that problem at the Dome..."

I got the Purple Panzies winning 6 games next year. Thats double last year. Super Bowl around the corner! Well 50 yrs or so.

F_T_K

The Vikings have never had a problem putting butts in the seats, even when they suck. As much as I enjoy the Twins, the Vikings reign supreme in this State when it comes to fan interest. And what does the # of wins last season have to do with getting a stadium built?

That game last night was comical. The pop up to home plate. Cassia asleep. Plueff running into a double play. The guy thrown out at 3rd. The passed ball. How many closed door sessions does Mr Whipple need with these idiots? TF becoming the place NOT to be seen this year.

How soon before we start seeing Twins fans in the bleacher seats wearing bags over their heads??

Nice epilogue, Rick. I tend to think that the one key ingredient in all of this was the pervasive pragmatism in key political leaders - Dayton, Rosen, Lanning, Rybak - which outweighed the disjointed opposition of liberal Dems and do-nothing tea partiers. Pawlenty never would have stuck his neck out to push this deal through - really he never stuck his neck out for anything, fearing the political consequences. Dayton has his obvious flaws, but the guy does what he thinks is right, and he does it now. He's never really been one of those politicians with both eyes on the most recent poll results. And he built a working coalition with others who clearly did not want to have to go through this mess again. Now or never was the consistent rallying cry, likely more because of a desire not to waste more time than anything else. (There really are, after all, other things that they need to attend, upcoming elections being one.)

And we'll see. The Dome site is ok. There can be advantages to NOT crowding like facilities all together (particularly in event management/traffic flow). It's still on the LR, still centtrally located, etc. Here's hoping the design is inspired.

Now that the legislature has adjourned and the bill passed, let's hope our level of discourse can be raised. To that end, I offer these humble suggestions: the word "baby" should only be used if referring to a child under the age of 12 months; the segue "oh wait" to denote sarcasm should be retired to the place where hackneyed old terms (like "bilateral leg weakness") get retired to. Any linguistics teachers out there who would care to comment?

Is the plan for the first season to be 2015 in the new place? 2012 and 2013 at Metrdome, 2014 at TCF?

It's my hope that, due to his experience as a developer and real estate mogul, Ziggy will do a better job developing the area around the new stadium than the group who put the Metrodome up.

2016 first season at new place; 2012-2014 at Metrodome; 2015 at TCF. Tentatively.

(click)

I don't think rick has any Crow to eat here. I have no doubt in my mind that if this didn't go through that there would have been a solution on the Farmers Market site. He was trumpeting what he thought was a better plan and site. Unfortunately that site just wasn't in the mix. It wasn't the one the legislature was considering.

Who knows what happened between henn Co and the Vikes. Some say the Vikes walked on them. Probably. But that didn't keep the City of Minneapolis from putting up a fight and eventually winning the team back. That is the part about mike Opat and Henn Co that I can't figure out and why I'm glad that we didn't have to have this fail and then go to them. they just didn't put up a fight. Opat sat there and wanted to have the last word. To have the team come crawling back to him. He should have been fighting for the opportunity to be in the mix like Minneapolis did to arden hills. In THAT regard Mike Opat failed us. It wasn't the vikings that failed us. It wasn't the legislature that failed us it was Mike Opat and his board. They chose to stay out of the fray and because of that this is what we get.

But I don't think Rick was wrong or he needs to eat any crow. There is no doubt that when it comes to stadiums and city planning that Rick is incredibly in the know. Save the Crow rick, eat steak.

That is the part about mike Opat and Henn Co that I can't figure out and why I'm glad that we didn't have to have this fail and then go to them. they just didn't put up a fight. Opat sat there and wanted to have the last word. To have the team come crawling back to him.

I've spent some time thinking about this. And your take could definitely be right. But the discussion in a previous comments section got me thinking about another one.

The key portion of the rumored HC plan was the expansion of the Target Field tax. It's what made the plan attractive b/c it's a stable funding source that is already being collected successfully. But no one can say why that wouldn't require a referendum. When I looked at the TF bill the language seemed pretty clear in exempting the tax from a vote at it's current rate only. I recall Rick seeing the same when he read it. A lawyer acquaintance of mine read it and he said the same. The assumption was the HC's lawyers were of a diff opinion. But if Opat was actually confident why would he wait to put his hat in the ring (besides petty BS that is)?

My guess is that the increase may not have been airtight. And if that is the case, the desire to wait could have been more strategic given the likely DFL swing in the makeup of the legislature this fall (thanks to the folks who pointed me to those retirement/MinnPost numbers on vulnerable district). Because if HC was going to need approval from the Legislature to avoid a vote on a sales tax increase, the current TP led group wasn't going to give him an audience. A DFL led legislature would be more willing to work with that solution.

All of that is speculation, but it does offer another plausible reason for Opat saying in many forums that the county wouldn't step in until after the election.

Hmmm interesting GoAUpher, then it wasn't an airtight deal. there is no guarantee that the DFL is going to pick up a bunch of seats this year. We have a couple GOP items on the ballot like Gay Marriage and Voter ID not to mention the presidential race. While I think these things are going to backfire on the GOP and the DFL is going to steam roll them there is no guarantee that will happen and well if that were to take place and we did wait for the Henn Co plan........ Then we would all eb saying how we should have passed it last session.

Disclaimer. My reference to politics is not meant as a slam on any party. If you are GOP and their ideals are in line with you by all means please vote that way, likewise for dems.

Didn't mean to be so snarky in my previous post Rick. It's not about wrong or right.....I just think it's foolish to make any bold predictions about a legislative body. They are so unpredicatable and there are a lot of behind the scenes "stuff" going on. Steve Sviggum once told me that nothing is certain until the lights go up on the voting board, and sometimes not even then! I guess that's true, as when I was watching the vote live, literally people would change their votes two or three times, depending on which way it was going I suppose.

Anyway, I'm kind of surprised they aren't starting this fall. I guess I thought we were further along in the process than having to wait a full year for construction to start, at least the site work. I also wonder what they will do about the problem of having only 50,000 seats at TCF and 53,000 season ticket holders. Maybe the last 6,000 by seniority each only get to go to half the games? No single game ticket sales that year? Be interesting to see how that goes, and if there is a significant price reduction in tickets for that year.

Rick, you don't have to apologize or eat any crow...it's your own blog! You have every right to express your thoughts on your own blog. There are no right or wrong opinions on a blog the way I see it.

Twins stadium bill passed in May 2006, first piles were driven into the ground in summer 2007 and the "official" groundbreaking was August 2 (later re-scheduled for August 30, 2007) with Target Field opening in April 2010.

So if the Vikings are on the same timeline they will break ground in summer 2013 and open in 2016.

By the way, I love those new Toronto Blue Jays uniforms! Such a clean and classic look.

moda~
I agree that nothing is assured. But I was surprised to see just how many Dem leaning districts were available for DLF pickup versus the reverse for the Republicans. There may be "red meat" on the ballot for the GOP base, but it is still a presidential election (i.e. Dem base turnout will also be strong) and the pickup opportunities I reference were in districts where DFL'ers hold the registration edge. Obviously there are other factors (e.g. how many "tossup" races are the DFL'ers in and might lose) but the situation is certainly primed for a switch, or at least for a severe reduction in GOP control of the Legislature.

Also, when you see that many GOP incumbants in DFL leaning districts that suggests that many of them are new incumbents that were likely swept in during the 2010 wave. Which means they've represented a district that is more blue then they are in a 2 year period when their party has been pushing stuff that PO's DFL'ers. That's priming the pump to get voted out.

All speculation and (happily) all moot.

Also, HC may very well feel they had an airtight way to increase the tax. I was just hypothesizing that if they didn't have one it would go a long way to explaining their reluctance to jump in until the next session.

So the Vikings are going to build an almost billion dollar stadium and this is how Lester plans on selling it after the bill passed.

From kare11.com...
As for luxury amenities, "world class" is the phrase being thrown out at the Capitol - but not first class. Said Bagley, "Top of the line is probably Dallas. This is going to be more Midwestern, mid-market like Lucas Oil Field in Indianapolis. I think that stadium would fit well in this market."

I know I am reading too much into this, but what a disappointing statement from Lester!

Has anyone been able to tell yet if the Minneapolis city council could still play spoiler if someone changes from a yes to a no vote? I've heard it positioned as "the yes victory is in the bag, so it's moot" to "it's a symbolic vote, so a no victory can't stop the stadium" to "a no victory could bring down the whole deal". What is actually the case? I can't allow myself to celebrate without knowing whether this is really in the bag or not.

The Goodell meeting absolutely played a key role in turning this around. Whatever he said, the stadium issue did a 180 turn at the capitol afterwards. Give the him, the NFL, and the Vikes credit for saving that call to the bullpen until it was in a position to have the maximum impact and then Goodell not laying the heat on so greatly that it created the opposite of the desired response.

The other big factor for turning this thing around was the use of social media as a tool for getting people to call, Tweet, and email their legislators. Once people really started hammering on their reps and senators, a few likely deadbolt no voters became yes voters. Once public pressure got turned up to a boil, I think just enough legislators worried about being tagged as having lost the Vikings that it made a difference in turning some votes.

A catalyst in the social media movement was the second, disastrous, appearance of Kurt Zellers on KFAN with Dan Barreiro. When he made the infamous "I won't vote for it, but I hope it passes" comment, it enraged people and played a role in calling stadium supporters to action that can't be discounted when all was said and done. People who were somewhat passive before the comment became highly active afterwards and I think it made a difference in the result.

Back to the Twins for a moment, I was at a Barnes and Noble yesterday and so a coffee table book titled "The Twins at the Met". Can't remember the author, but looked like it had a lot of great pictures and maybe some interesting tidbits. Does anyone have this book, and would you recommend it?

Any idea when they'll vote? My impression is the longer this goes, the more likely someone is to switch, if that's even what Reich is thinking about doing. Barbara Johnson, a mortal lock to vote yes, also refused to comment. Not commenting may mean "let me read the language first" as much as "I'm considering changing my mind" if we look at Johnson and Reich collectively.

Lester's comment about the stadium being more like Indianapolis' than Dallas' is somewhat disconcerting. The Metrodome wound up being a dump literally from day one due to that kind of attitude. I'm not expecting anything that bad, but do wish they'd set the bar high. There are some gaudy aspects to the Dallas stadium, such as its exterior design, that won't play here, but one thing the new Vikes stadium needs to shoot for is a central scoreboard as big or bigger and with the same clarity as the one in Dallas.

I will be gettin the book on my lunch hour! Thanks.....May 25 is an eternity! Hope they do a special meeting before then. The Friday of Memorial Day weekend is bad anyway. I agree that the longer they wait, the more chance the anti-everything crowd will have to sink their hooks in. The pro-stadium people need to stay vigilant and not get lulled to sleep.

Unless RT Rybak can 100% say the vote would go his way, I'd advise against him calling an early meeting or at least not too early. The last thing he needs to do is aggravate certain council members who aren't always in his corner to begin with by making them feel like they're under even more pressure than they probably already are.

Thinking about Target Field, does anyone else experience vertigo when on the upper tier in left field and in the trapezoid? The Twins had to do what they could with the available space, but both are uncomfortably steep. Corny as it sounds, I worry about people not only on those stairs, but also when moving through rows to seats. One false move and you're in big trouble to a greater extent than almost any other upper deck in town except possibly the ends at the Xcel Center where at least there are railings.

Once people really started hammering on their reps and senators, a few likely deadbolt no voters became yes voters.

I can tell you for a fact that emails were the deciding factor for Sen Goodwin (DFL - Columbia Heights). I sent her an email asking her to vote 'yes'...and few days later I received a reply from her that I'm sure she sent to all who emailed on the submit. Here are some snippets:

"Dear Friends and Neighbors:

Thank you so much to those of you who took the time to respond to my survey on the Vikings Stadium issue. It has been on the Senate floor for many hours today. This has been a very difficult issue. I was very happy to see that over 800 of you took time to tell me your opinion."

...

"Here are the results of the survey: 821 responses (very strong response rate)440 yes votes and 381 no votes.
Yes = 54% and 46% no - a difference of 8%. "

...

"Long story short, I went with the majority vote. I really did not and do not personally believe that we needed to have one of the most exclusive stadiums in the nation when funding might end up coming from the general fund and from other areas of the budget - but I asked you and I honored the majority decision. I did not believe that we needed 2,500 bars, restaurants or gas stations with electronic pull tabs that are very much like slot machines.

Barb Goodwin, State Senator"

^^^Please excuse my feable attempt at formatting my post....would be nice to have an edit feature.

Rick-

Even though I'm happy with the result, I gotta be honest that I agree with you. I hope this isn't how she makes ALL of her decisions when it comes to voting yes or no.

How many of those constituents read the bill or even listened to a minute of the debate?

tk-

I wonder how many Legislators read the bill in detail before they voted on it?

Maybe I'm an optimist but I didn't take anything negative away from Bagley's comments. To me he was (inartfully) saying "we're not looking to waste the public money on frivolous things but we intend to build a good stadium". Basically, I took the "world class" and "midwestern" parts of is to be meaningless BS. Something along the lines of "we're all nice Germans and Scandinavians up here and if we say we're building something too fancy that's just getting too big for our britches dontcha know so that's not what I'm doing."

If their intention is to not waste on frivolous things, I hope they cease all discussion about a retractable roof, or making it "retractable roof-ready," whatever that means.

I'm with GoAUpher on this interpretation. There is no way the Vikings build anything dumpy. The lower-class accommodations may not be the greatest, but the big-money areas will be tricked out and the whole place will look decent enough. The one area of concern for y'all should be the general appearance, and whether it will be aesthetically pleasing to you or just aesthetically pleasing enough for the Vikings' wallets.

Maybe this has been addressed elsewhere, but will the new stadium be able to support indoor baseball games? I've heard mention of winter baseball "practices" being there but I really think the community would like to retain that indoor baseball option (even if it lacks some of the baseball focus of the Dome).

I have heard the Vikings praise Ford Field in Detroit, Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis and Seahawks/Qwest/CenturyLink Field in Seattle as the three stadiums they will look at most. And those three stadiums are some of the best NFL stadiums so we can only hope the Vikings get it right!

They have not mentioned U of Phoenix Stadium or Cowboys Stadium.

A major benefit of being one of the last NFL teams to build a new stadium is that they can look at what everyone else has done and cherry pick good ideas and, more importantly, identify what hasn't worked.

I disagree about the retractable roof. Relative to the overall cost of the facility, it's fairly cheap to implement the retractable roof. I'm reading it would cost Ziggy between $25-$40 million extra. Both Mark and Ziggy have both gone on record as indicating that they are leaning towards including it in the final design. I'm not a fan of the retractable roofs over ballparks, but I think they look just fine over a football stadium.

Click my name for a link to a new video of Farmers Field. What could of been at the Farmers Market site.

But what does a retractable roof add? It woud be open 2, at most 3 home games per year, closed at the hint of bad weather, and in my book, a "small portal of viewable sky barely the size of the playing surface below" does not count as "playing outside." Waste of money.

"a "small portal of viewable sky barely the size of the playing surface below" does not count as "playing outside." "

Take a look at Century Link Field. (Clicky)

Century Link Field does not have a retractable roof.

Jorge--Regarding vertigo in RF seats. During the first open house before TF opened, I checked out the various places my groups were assigned seats in 2010. Opening day in the trap, couple games at the top of Home Run View sections. First times I visited both areas I found myself reaching back to hold on to the seat behind me, it was that dizzying. Now after many games in both areas I must be used to it. But you're right, that pitch is something else.

Why was the NHL Winter Classic part of the Farmer's Field video?

But what does a retractable roof add? It woud be open 2, at most 3 home games per year, closed at the hint of bad weather, and in my book, a "small portal of viewable sky barely the size of the playing surface below" does not count as "playing outside." Waste of money.

Agreed, but if it comes from the Wilf paying the extra money on top of the existing funding then I don't think anyone will complain. Well, some folks will rightfully point out that if they can blow money on that then the had the ability to contribute more. But they always had the ability to give more, they simply didn't want to (he's a businessman who wants the best deal for his company after all).

Well we did not get the best location (Arden Hills) but we didn't get the worst either (Farmers Market), so I guess it is right in the middle. If they have mentioned Lucas Oil as inspiration, good, I would have no problem with an exact replica of Lucas Oil. Better than that picture they have been circulating.

I think the retractable roof is unnessary, but if Zygi wants to fork over more $ to make it happen, fine. As long as it actually works well (iow, don't copy Miller Park).

The Twins did a good job of surveying recently built parks for design ideas. No reason the Vikes can't do the same. If they're at all smart, they'll solicit ideas from the general public and offer small prizes for ideas that get incorporated into the final design. That's how you build a "People's Stadium" and grow the STH base.

Interesting take by Reusse on Zigmunt!

We in the Twin Cities sports media were so amped up over getting a new stadium for the Vikings and thus maintaining them as a subject to write and talk about that not much time was spent looking at the financial realities.

We have allowed owner Zygi Wilf to be crowned as a patient, generous hero in the proceedings that led to the approval of the stadium on Thursday in the State Legislature. Gov. Mark Dayton did more than anyone to overcome the political odds against this thing and gain approval for the stadium, yet he was effusive in his praise of Wilf at the victory news conference.

Of course, it's in the best interest of Dayton and all other political supporters to send along the message that getting the extra $50 million from the team was the result of driving a hard bargain with the Vikings.

Listen, I was on board with this _ for the same biased reasons as other people making their living in the sports media _ but more so because of this belief:

That an active downtown Minneapolis is the most-important element in maintaining a vibrant metropolitan area.

The truth is that at the new number for the team share, $477 million, this remains a marvelous deal for Wilf and the Vikings. These tycoons always borrow the millions they put into stadium deals, so that they can use the interest on the debt as a write off against the new profits.

And in the case of Zygi, much more than with the Pohlads and Target Field, the new profits are going to be enormous _ with the combination of higher prices everywhere in the stadium, fabulous new suites and thousands of other premium seats.

Consider this: The Twins were able to pick up an extra $6 million with the $2,000 per seat, upfront license fee for the 3,000-seat Legends Club at Target Field. Can you imagine the ease with which Zygi will be able to collect greater upfront license fees for premium seats in the new stadium?

I'm estimating an average of $4,000 for 10,000 premium seats (not suites) in the coffers before the new stadium opens. That's $40 million in the Vikings' coffers.

The Vikings also received the entire take from naming rights. I've asked Twins officials and other sports executives what the Vikings can expect as an annual fee for naming rights and was told: "Seven million, maybe eight.''

Put it at $7 million annually and that's $210 million over a 30-year lease.

Zygi will be getting $200 million of his $477 million from the NFL. When he borrows the other $277 million and starts paying it back, these calculations say he can call on $40 million upfront in seat license and another $210 million along the way in naming rights to help with the bank payments.

And there's also a difference between the myth and the reality of the $200 million "loan'' the Vikings claim to be getting from the NFL.

We've accepted the Vikings' description of it as a loan, when in reality Zygi is getting a grant from the NFL, as pointed out by Neil deMause on his "Field of Schemes'' website back in late December.

DeMause reported that this was what was approved by an NFL owners meeting when it came to the league helping to finance new stadiums. He broke it into three parts:

*The new loan program _ which actually will be called "G-4" - ups the maximum loan level from $150 million per team under the old plan to a maximum of $200 million under the new one.
*As under G-3, teams can repay the loan with club seat money THEY NORMALLY WOULD HAVE HAD TO SHARE WITH THE LEAGUE. They can now also use incremental regular ticket revenue, defined as the difference between ticket sales in the new stadium and average sales in the last three years of the old one.

*"The project must not involve any relocation of or change in an affected club's 'home territory.'" (Note: So Zygi wouldn't have able to get this $200 million from the NFL if he had relocated the team).

DeMause added: Teams looking to build new stadiums without paying for them themselves are, naturally, thrilled - since this is money that they wouldn't normally get to keep anyway. it's effectively a grant, not a loan.

DeMause also quoted Vikings stadium lobbyist Lester Bagley as calling the NFL's $200 million "great news for the team and our fans.''

Bagley changed his view somewhat over the $200 million in the final weeks of successful stadium maneuvering, depicting it more as simply a loan than a handout paid back through revenues that the Vikings would have been sending to the NFL anyway as part of revenue sharing.

Add it up - naming rights, license fees, NFL grant _ and you have $450 million of Zygi's $477 million. That doesn't seem to be much suffering for a fellow now being depicted as the patient martyr of stadium negotiations.

Agreed, no one will complain about the funding source - my point is if they're willing to put in an extra $25-30 million for this, I would rather those funds be used for something that improves the experience at each and every game - top notch replay screens, etc. If they put a retractable roof on, as we've seen with other stadiums with retractable roofs, it will simply be closed a vast majority of the time.

Damn! My bad....

How about Reliant Stadium?

I think that the design and stadium specific construction companies these days will prevent us from anything quite like the Dome.

I mean as long as we don't have any dolphins jumping over waterfalls I think we can have a classy stadium. Of the three that have been built here recently they've managed to keep them interesting and classy.

Just got this email from the Twins:

We recently mailed to you a card that thanked you for your dedication to the Twins organization while also congratulating you on the number of years you have held season tickets with the team.

Your Minnesota Twins Ticket Sales & Service Team

Forget dolphins and waterfalls. I think they need a little model of a coastal village that Ragnar can pillage and burn to the ground every time the team scores a touchdown.

Duffman, forgive me if you've explained in the past, but when you referred to Farmers Market as the worst site, what shaped your opinion in that manner and why do you rank it at the bottom of all possibilities, including the current site?

Rick, are you going to cover the building of the Viking stadium like you did the Twins stadium? (assuming the city council keeps there word)

Ragnar might only need a couple of matches all year. TD's might be hard to come by. Unless your talking about the visiting team.

I love the burn the village idea. Way better than fireworks.

Maybe we can bring back capital punishment to this State and figure out a way to incorporate public executions into Ragnar's touchdown celebration.

Ah twink, your troll-ish schtick is so weak. The Vikings will be playing in the new stadium this fall? That'll be a neat trick.

Mike, got the same e-mail! Damn, I now have to add another piece of communication as another benefit I have received from the Sweet Spot.

Any other Twins STH sign up to for the chance to be selected for the STH Focus Group?

I think it would be very unwise not to include a retractable roof in the design. That feature could truly excite the fans about the gameday experience more than any other feature possibly could. It would not be in use for every game of the season, but just imagine the difference on gameday outdoors-the experience would be so much more fun.

Ok I will give em 5 more years in the 50 year rebuilding process. One of these days we will win the big one. Year 51 and counting!

If they want to bring MLS to town, they probably either need to go with no roof or a retractable one. Fixed most likely means no MLS.

Could really use Needn't help at Target Field with the weather tonight. This system it's slow moving and they are starting to remove the tarp.

Needn't = Jared.

During the rain delay I was trying to find the best spot to be in a rain delay. Not sure if it has been discussed here?

Obviously, the best spot would be the Champions with includes beer and food.

If we would have found a table early, Town Ball would have been nice. Ended up hanging out at the Captains Deck, lots of space to move around.

Sorry guys, still on vacation in Florida and can only really do a "quick check" on goings on around here. I have been trying to keep up but with the Vikings vote passing and all the subsequent posts, its been tough adding that to the Disney daily schedule and the TONS of photo processing left over. I think I came out with a few thousand photos in the first couple nights. Lost count after that.

The Vikings will need lots of good luck in the coming years to make this new stadium pay off in the ways they hope. They’ll need to keep their pricing for tickets – even premium seating tickets and their attendant PSLs – reasonably priced. They’re fighting for entertainment dollars in a medium-sized market with three other professional sports and a major university athletic department. They’ll need to put a competitive product on the field every year, otherwise ticket sales, as they have in the past during down years, will lag once the novelty of the new building wears off.

When I first became a Vikings season ticket holder, the Vikings couldn’t get arrested in this state, and they were reduced to offering freebies with every new account (a Weber Smoky Joe grill to mark the return of tailgating). The Dome was half full for some of those games that year (1996). My last year as a season ticket holder was 2010, and both last year and this year, I’ve received phone calls from ticket sales people begging me to come back. That’s not the mark of a team that’s receiving overwhelming support.

They’ll have their new stadium now, but will they be able to make it work over the long haul?

The Vikings will need lots of good luck in the coming years to make this new stadium pay off in the ways they hope. They’ll need to keep their pricing for tickets – even premium seating tickets and their attendant PSLs – reasonably priced. They’re fighting for entertainment dollars in a medium-sized market with three other professional sports and a major university athletic department. They’ll need to put a competitive product on the field every year, otherwise ticket sales, as they have in the past during down years, will lag once the novelty of the new building wears off.

When I first became a Vikings season ticket holder, the Vikings couldn’t get arrested in this state, and they were reduced to offering freebies with every new account (a Weber Smoky Joe grill to mark the return of tailgating). The Dome was half full for some of those games that year (1996). My last year as a season ticket holder was 2010, and both last year and this year, I’ve received phone calls from ticket sales people begging me to come back. That’s not the mark of a team that’s receiving overwhelming support.

They’ll have their new stadium now, but will they be able to make it work over the long haul?

Oops! I don't know what happened there. Sorry...

I think in all the happenings in the past 72 hours, we have yet to really let the fact sink in that in the near future the Metrodome will be GONE. I'm not about to start a SAVE THE DOME blog. But as a dad in my mid-30s, it's all I really knew when it came to Twins and Vikings. I guess I'll have similar feelings as to those who watched Met Stadium host its final games.

Yes, the Dome lacked amenities but it did host a Super Bowl, the T-wolves' first season, two Twins World Series and, as a kid, brought me immense pleasure as it blew me out the door after every game in its own perverse, zany way.

It will be gone (hooray!?) but not forgotten.

Click my name for a video of the mayor giving some information on plans for around the new Vikings stadium.

LOL! Rick I had to laugh when I read your thoughts on imploding the dome. Before TF was built, I always thought a good funding source for a ballpark would be a lottery in which all baseball fans could purchase a chance to be the one to push the plunger and blow that ugly thing to perdition!

"PULL MY TAB STADIUM"....This stadium name would make the political correct crowd happy.

Jorge, I dont know if we really need to get into that again, but if you really want, I think the majority of the comments were in "The Delusional Hills of Arden" below.

That comment was more of a little needle at those who thought this site was stupid, and would never get done. My point all along was it was a better site than FM but no where even close to Arden Hills.
It was just one last comment on it, becuase now the fun of that stadium begins, just as it was for the Twins, the design phase.

What would each of us want in the building? More tradional like Ford Field, or Lucas Oil with a warehouse look or something more futuristic like MetLife Field? I prefer the former, but that is eachs person opinion.

Too bad some jackass designated the Cedar Riverside buildings as historical landmarks, because (though fantasy I know) how cool would it be to implode them, make it a large parking lot for the new Dome just across the freeway and have a plethora of parking for tailgating and for the U of M on non-game days. It would probably help with crime too. Ahh...To dream.

I don't want to see Lucas Oil Field II or Ford Field II, Id like to see the Vikings try something unique and innovative. Something daring.

Well if they modeled it after Lucas Oil, we'd be returning the favor to Indy for basically building a clone of the Metrodome. Not that I'm for modeling it after Lucas Oil.

I was very interested to hear some of the ideas from Mayor Rybak. It is a very big opportunity for everyone involved to "fix" East DT. Their biggest challenge is to make sure this new stadium blends and flows with it's surroundings...something the Dome never did.

ZERO for nine with RISP position tonight. 2-1 loss.

One name. Frank O. Gehry

For the love of God, not Gehry.

Ah yes - The Weisman Dome! Culture meets face paint!

I enjoyed your latest post Rick. Nice to see the crow on the plate. It takes character to admit when you are wrong.

I'm interested to hear how actively you will follow the new stadium construction. Will this site have updates as you hear things and make observations or will you create a new site devoted to the new Vikings stadium?

I'm thinking that between the design and construction of the Vikings stadium, the renovation of Target Center and how it will impact the flow into Target Plaza, and the possible construction of a new Saints ballpark in Lowertown, there could be a plenty of fodder for discussion on this site.

The MSFC is fu*&ing worthless...the dorks decide NOW to put new scoreboards in the soon-to-be-defunct Dome. How stupid can five angry, old men get? Jesus. when I retrieve the article I will post it, I am on the road right now...lol.

as promised, clicky for the new Metrodome scoreboards article. What the hell...it makes it sound like the ribbon boards that DAKT installed a few years ago are already going bad?

$5 million they could have used to help pay for the retractable roof...lol. And they're using it to replace old scoreboards in a stadium that will soon be toast.

I hope the MSFC has a drawing to find people to blow one of the twenty sticks of C4 plastics that will demolish the Dome in a couple years. I would love to be one of the people to send the Dome to its fate.

First off, Luke, way to be on top of the news with a 3+ week-old article. Secondly, how do you get $5 million when it cites a $276,000 cost? Third, did you miss the part where the new boards can be transferred to a new stadium? As you often do, you give ignorance a bad name.

Luke, did you read the article? The boards being replaced are 23 years old and don't work. Not to mention the fact that they can be moved to the new stadium. Although I have only posted a couple times now, I have been a regular reader. That being said, I should know better than to try and reason with you.

Lol fiesta....ya i noticed that too after the fact, but BMTN had poated it in TODAYS email...lol. sorry. That being said, what boards are they replacing then? The two video boards are fairly new...so whats left to replace? Do they mean the big yellow and black board on the south side of the stadium?

Given the dimensions they cited, the replacement boards are 4 feet high...that suggests to me ribbon boards. So i am clueless to what boards they are trying to replace

It reads to me like it will be the game-in-progress boards running along either sideline that will be replaced. they're the oldest boards in the building, I figure, and the article says that the company that made them no longer stocks spare parts.

When they do finally implode the bitch...Can we make sure Luke's laptop is somewhere inside??

Saturday was almost a perfect evening at the ballpark (except of course that our guys lost..) Twins are on pace for 47 wins now.

Next game I have tickets for is not until the end of June. Might have to Stubhub a game or two between now and then.

Funny guys....but im way ahead of you. I already have a ticket to the Domeplosion. Ill be in section 329

Ill be in section 329
Hmm... must be a roof-top seat. I'll strap you in.

Cant do that, there Kev-bo. A) my laptop will actually be controlling the detonation. B) I'll lose the schematics for the H-bomb I'm building to blow up the place...lol.

Nice to see you back Kevin, i miss your old-time wit :)

Hey 14 games under. BUT only 8 out in the Mighty Central. Here we come! Diamond and JP look like upgrades maybe? We sweep the tribe and we are only 6 out!

Twinkfan,

I would give JP and Diamond 4-5 starts to really gauge where they will be...after a solid scouting report is formulated (already know you can run on Diamond).

However, not to discount their outings, things are looking up!

Well if all goes according to karma and plan the scratching of the pen right now will begin a very exciting process

Pavano heading to the DL???? Sounds like they are getting Dunsing ready just in case.

If you want to know what a Metrodome implosion would look like, just go to YouTube and look for the RCA Dome implosion,Indy's old dome is basically a carbon copy of the Hump Dump. They would deflate the roof and rip it out before the implosion.

Dayton signed the bill today and lots of people are celebrating as if it's over and done with. Ask people about the city council vote and you'll hear about it being a formality and everyone figuring it's as good as done. Many of the people saying this, including major media personalities, seem to be basing their statements on hope as much as anything else. I can't help being a worrier about it and won't celebrate until that vote is official and a yes victory.

Of the two surprising yes votes from last time, Sandra Colvin-Roy called the stadium deal a good one for the city and said that not only will she vote for it, but that the votes are there for it to pass. The other council member, Kevin Reich said he was undecided. However, he followed up by stating that he wanted to read the bill in its entirety before committing himself and that he saw no red flags in the portion he'd completed so far. Until, or unless, he says yes, nothing's in the bag.

Of the six who voted no, I can think of only one or two for whom a switch to yes would seem plausible. The others are hard no voters. Of the other yes voters, I don't anticipate anyone switching, but you never know. At this point, May 25 can't come soon enough.

At least none of the "no" votes on the Mpls. city council bursts into tears every time the subject comes up.

Jorge - I am also a bit paranoid about the vote, and will be glad when it's done. I certainly would not want to be the Councilman or women who voted in favor of this bill on two occasions, however, and then decided to change my vote to a No. Especially after the only real change since the last vote is that the Vikings ADDED $50 million. Can you imagine the wrath of the Mayor, Governor and members of the Legislature that stuck their necks out? Not to mention all of those Zuba wearing face painted guys who were at the Capitol every day? As Rick mentioned, it would be political suicide. I also think it would be political grandstanding at this point. I still will be glad when it's in the books.

Good point, Rick, that if someone changed their vote to a "no," he or she would be hailed as a savior in some circles. I just think it would look really bad at this point. It would be one thing to be against the plan from the beginning. In fact, if the plan would have been defeated by the City Council in the early stages, we could have avoided the pain and long hours of the debate in the Legislature. To pass it twice and defeat it now, after everything that has occurred, would be very lame (I can't think of a better word).

This reminds me of the Target Center bill that was called a "done deal" in the media but had to be approved by the Hennepin County Commissioners. I was paranoid enough about that to actually go down to the Government Center and testify on behalf of the bill as a "citizen and fan." I was pretty nervous with Jerry Bell and some other big wigs sitting about 3 feet from me. I felt better when Leslie Davis and his guitar got thrown out for interrupting speakers. That was funny.

Sorry - Target "Field" bill, not Target "Center."

The owner of the Colorado Rockies was just named to the Mayo Clinic Board of Governors. 'Spose we could talk her into sending Cuddyer back? I mean the trees are still gone.

I would not take Cuddy back. Unless it would be for less than 5 mil a year. This team needs to get younger not older. Time to see what the kids can do and rebuild. OK I'm dreaming but is there anyway they could move the Baby Jesus and that Mega contract? How much would the Twins have to eat?

The stadium bill gives property tax relief to MPLS residents. Why would they be against that?

Warning. This is long. I started writing down everything I want in a new Vikings stadium. As lengthy as this list is, it could probably be longer, but this is plenty to start with.

- Give the place a Vikings touch. Be it signage, banners, random memorabilia displays, the color scheme or what have you, make sure fans know who plays there. Target Field does well in this regard in some respects, but fails in others.

- Make sure the food options are not only plentiful, but also of high quality. A large selection does little good if the food is average to lousy.

- Although concession stands do business throughout the game, the prime times will always be before kickoff, between the first and second quarters, halftime, and between the third and fourth quarters. The stands and points of sale at those stands must be numerous enough to handle these crunch times.

- Do everything possible to make all food choices available on all seating decks. Don’t come up with a signature item and then make it only available on the lower tier.

- Don’t make a deal with Schweigert for the hot dogs. Hormel was not very good either, actually. The current Sheboygan dogs from the Dome are pretty good. I'd feel happy enough if they followed the Vikes to their new home.

- Bring back fountain pop. When the Twins exited the Dome, Pepsi replaced Coke as a bone to the Vikes. The Coke fountains came out and, presumably since the Dome was on borrowed time, Pepsi fountains did not replace them. Instead, they sell Pepsi products in 20 oz bottles from coolers. It’s not the same. Bring back the fountains.

- However wide the designers think the concourses should be, they should widen them by another 1/4. As bad as the concourses became during Twins games, they were worse during Vikings games due to the aforementioned crunch times. Give the fans some room to breathe.

- Include even more entry gates and turnstiles positioned at those gates. The Metrodome has never had enough to handle the crowds it draws.

- As much as the lot will allow, have a wide circulation area outside the stadium. This is another Metrodome mistake. Gate G, above the plaza by the Twins old office block, is literally dangerous on Vikings game days. It is only due to luck that someone hasn’t been hurt by the issue of too many people moving in opposite directions trying to squeeze through too small an area while other people are waiting in line to enter the venue. The stadium must feature more external circulation space to avoid a repeat of this problem.

- Give the fans dedicated walk in merchandise stores.

- Include a Vikings hall of fame.

- The scoreboard needs to be as big, as fancy, and as clear as space and technology will allow. Look at the massive central scoreboard the Dallas Cowboys have. Aspire to that, but bigger and better.

- In the concourses, there should be TV screens, as big as space and practicality will allow, tuned to not only the game in progress but also the NFL’s Redzone channel. For the uninitiated, this channel operates only on game day Sunday afternoons. It flips from game to game to show whatever the best action is that moment and to show all touchdowns live, as live or immediately on tape. I believe the NFL may actually now require the availability of this channel within stadiums capable of showing it.

- The luxury boxes and club seating areas need to be as comfortable and fancy as possible. Given the prices the Vikings will charge, Midwestern nice won’t cut it. They need to make the buyers feel like they got their money’s worth.

- Don’t sacrifice legroom and seat width in the name of cramming in a few extra seats. Although it depends on where you sit, Target Field and TCF Bank Stadium are fantastic in this aspect.

- For those of us who suffer vertigo in the top tier of Target Field’s leftfield grandstand, please don’t make the upper decks too steep at the new Vikings stadium. Unfortunately, due to the limitations of the lot, the Vikings are probably going to have to build up instead of out in order to attain their desired capacity. That’ll mean very steep upper decks.

- Take into account technology that hasn’t been invented yet when designing the place. Easier said than done, but the 49ers are doing this at their new home.

- Go big on the locker room, training areas, and other facilities the players will use. That stuff is important to retaining and recruiting players.

- Since the stadium will largely be too far from any bars or restaurants to reasonably walk on a cold winter’s day, take a lead from the Twins and put several in the stadium for use before, during, and after the game.

- The problem of fans parking in the middle of a concourse to chat will never go away completely. However, create some drink rails where possible to give people a reason to clear the way. If space will allow, even create some area for tables and chairs.

- Looking more at design, be careful about where the entry tunnels to the seating decks are positioned to ensure everything from maximizing the number of seats closer to the field to minimizing the number of fans who must walk in front of others.

- Don’t be afraid to do something daring or exciting with the exterior design. There are some very interesting looking soccer stadiums around the world. NFL stadiums are pretty dull by comparison.

- Get a first class sound system.

- Have a proper plan and design before you start building. The Cincinnati Reds started tinkering with Great American Ballpark’s design during construction and wound up with a jumbled mess that let down many people. If an obvious improvement can be implemented, that’s one thing. It’s quite another to start messing around on whims. There’s only one chance to get this thing right. Don’t blow it.

"- Don’t be afraid to do something daring or exciting with the exterior design. There are some very interesting looking soccer stadiums around the world. NFL stadiums are pretty dull by comparison."

I agree 100%....I hope they try something daring and original rather than safe and dull.

Another idea for the Vikings Stadium. If they are going to continue the charade of "Security Theater", have some sort type of protection from the elements at the gate areas where they can do the "take-off-your-coat-and-spread-your-arms" shtick. Standing with your coat off in freezing weather while being pawed as you wait for some twenty-something to meticulously inspect the binoculars you've been bringing to the games since before he was born is not a fun experience.

Terry - I think they would have all of that security inside the main entry points just like they do at Target Center and Xcel Energy Center. You go inside the building before you go through security.

The Metrodome design does not allow for them to have security checks inside the venue as there is not enough space.

So my guess would be that we will be protected from the elements while waiting for security. Also, I am sure there will be an atrium of some type in the new stadium.

I neglected a very important must have item. The new stadium must have many, many more restrooms and within those restrooms there must be more stalls and, for men, urinals or troughs. Ladies rooms must especially be multiplied. I tell any female going to a Vikings game to make a bathroom run midway through second quarter after mid 1st/2nd rush has subsided. If they wait until halftime, or even too close to it, they'll spend the entire break in line and probably miss some of the third quarter besides.

Tribe up 2-0 top of the 6th! Marquis a stinker. 5 IP, 9hits, 5 ER. So much for gaining ground in the mighty central. Instead will soon be 10 out and 16 games under and on our way to Detroit.

Make that 5-0 bottomof the 6th

Sandra Colvin-Roy has clarified her earlier statement. While still supporting the stadium herself, she claims to have not promised the bill would pass (she didn't deny saying she thought it would, which means something different). Her statment stems from concern that some people have taken her as saying Kevin Reich's vote was good to go as yes. She claims to have not stated any opinion on his intentions.

On one hand Colvin-Roy seems to be distancing herself from any act of counting chickens before they've hatched while also not effectively casting Reich's votes for him. He still remains officially undecided, but without giving anything away that would suggest he'd vote no.

Now that the euphoria over the bill passing has died down and Dayton has signed it into law, both the Vikes and stadium supporters are waking up to the fact that this isn't over with yet. The Vikes and stadium backers are now encouraging people to contact the council to encourage them to support the stadium. Those people need to be careful. The Minneapolis city council doesn't feature many football fanatics and doesn't respond well to the pressures of outsiders. The last thing any stadium supporter needs is a bunch of yahoos crossing the lines of decency and pushing a borderline yes to no.

Jorge, you said you think there are 1 or 2 former no votes on the council who would/could be on the fence. Which ones are those? I know 4 of the no votes who 100% are not on the fence with their vote. They are an unequivical no. Yep, as a resident of Mpls, I am nervous about this vote as well. Hopefully all the 7 yes 'votes' honor the letters they signed.

I actually sent a letter asking Barb Johnson if it would help to send letters to the city council. They are a different animal and I thought the same as you - do not bombard them with emails. I have not heard back yet. However, the mayor has said to let them know if you are in favor.

As I said before...some councilors are wisely being coy to see what they can fanagle for themselves. Politics, people.

The two votes I thought could be on the fence were Elizabeth Glidden and Lisa Goodman. The other four were firm no voters. Well, write them both off too. Someone I know contacted them both and asked for their stances.

Glidden said nothing could change her vote. I'd thought since her complaints were about the city's share of the cost rather than referendums or general principle that there might be an opening. However, that opening apparently never existed.

Goodman point blank told him she was a 100% no vote, rolling out the usual corporate welfare stuff along with a belief that it's a bad investment, that Minneapolis residents still bear too much of the burden, and that constituents are running 60/40 against. Keep in mind that the stadium would be in her ward and she's against it.

However, she added that she had no reason to believe Kevin Reich would change his vote, pointing out that it would be very dramatic and that's not his style. Assuming she's right on, no one else is wavering, and nothing crazy happens in the next ten days, it would appear the 7-6 yes margin will prevail.

The new stadium must have many, many more restrooms and within those restrooms there must be more stalls and, for men, urinals or troughs. Ladies rooms must especially be multiplied.

Alongside this, better designed bathrooms for traffic flow. Most places now do an In door and an out door and traffic flows around that accordingly but TF weirdly enough had some bathrooms with that in mind while others in TF must have not had the out door included in the blueprints, thus making you backtrack.

Or how about, the new stadium should have permanent food stands on the outside ring of the concourse and no (or very very few) mobile carts anywhere else. Yes those same people will now fill lines at permanent stands but at least it can be uniform lines on the outside ring thus apparently allowing better flow/circulation through the inside ring which will most likely have an entirely open view to the field.

On Opening Day, there were a couple Homeland Security guards outside the light rail. At the time, I thought it might be due to the Flyover, etc.

However, today, a friend of mine said there were a three Homeland guards outside Gate 3, this time with some fairly high caliber rifles.

Anyone have any insight? I can think of plenty of sarcastic remarks, but I will reserve as I am actually really curious.

I think the reason for the Homeland Security is a preparedness drill......

Yep, that is what Goodman and Glidden wrote me as well. Though on Monday Goodman said constituents were running 80/20 against. So if it is now 60/40, then that is getting better - but it won't change her mind. Kevin Reich was the only one left who was on the fence and then he was swayed and signed the letter of intent. As long as he doesn't sway back the other way, we are good.
Wow, talk about one person holding all the cards after everything that was done to get this far. With the pressure from the govenor, mayor, labor, mpls chamber of commerce, etc., I can't imagine him switching but...
what makes me nervous is this: Reich was the one who broke ranks with the 7 who signed the letters of intent and voted yes to Cam Gordons proposal to have a charter commission take a look at the whole referedum issue. (That proposal thus passed 7-6 and of course would not have passed if he didn't break ranks. Note: Gordon had thrown a bunch of propsals out there and they all got voted down except this one) If they don't come back with a favorable opinion regarding referendum truly not applying, then who knows what he might be considering.

Anyone else see the Angels dismissed Mickey Hatcher as their hitting coach after 12+ years?

Just makes me wonder when the Twins will make a move and shake up things in the organization. Someone has to be held accountable for this team's performance over the last 2+ seasons. And lets face it, things are not going to be much better in 2013 unless some significant changes are made.

Ryan and Gardenhire need to realize they need to fire some people or risk getting fired themselves because this isn't the Twins of the 90's anymore.

It's going to do no good getting rid of Gardenhire mid-season when they would simply replace him with Scott Ullger. An entire new coaching staff and training staff is needed in my mind...some new blood to say the least with a new philosophical approach.

Terry Ryan has a very tough job ahead of him because there is pretty much only one person on the roster who has any trade value and that is Denard Span.

TF-related tidbit: I walked by Cowboy Jack's, and they've made some progress. Lights outside, and internal finishing work is going on (wood trim, etc.). From a construction standpoint, it looks like they could be ready to open within a couple of weeks. Not sure where they're at with the rest of the business operations...

When the Dump opened in 1982, there were so many home runs hit that the place was called "The Homerdome". Turned out of course that the main reason for all the home runs wasn't the building but the terrible pitching staff the Twins had back then. I'm reminded of that as opponents have continued to bombard the outfield seats with home runs while Twins hitters complain about the unfairness of TF.

Yep fireor demote Vavvy ASAP. Trade ASAP for anything you can get for Danny Boy, Span, Fransisssco, Crapper, Pavano, Lexy. Rebuild mode 100% ON. Lets hope Morneau retires soon. And start to dangle the Baby Jesus out there.

Be interesting to see if Cowboy Jacks will survive after baseball season is over. It is out in the boonies!

Twinkfan-

[quizzicaldog.jpg]

It would be awesome if the Wilfs would ok a stadium design that had a 670 foot moving roof(like Rogers Centre only flatter) that moved completely off the seating bowl when not in use. This would truly give you the best of both worlds-ability to play inside or out. The technology is obviously available out there to make a truly indoor/outdoor football venue if somebody wanted to.

I'm sure the technology exists for such a thing, but where on this current site would you park that 650ft roof when retracted? And how would such a structure look as the new gateway to downtown when approaching from the East?

If the Wilf's are dead-set on a retractable roof just for the sake of having a retractable roof, I'd prefer something akin to Cowboys stadium. As I have stated before, I don't think any of the retractable-roof stadiums executed thus far give you a sense of being truly outdoors when retracted. This includes Cowboys stadium, but at least the supporting structure for that roof has a very elegant design, which doesn't interfere at all with the function of the stadium itself.

Rather than try and move the roof as single 650 foot entity, what about designing a "soft" roof using a durable fabric (teflon?) that will fold up like an accordian when the roof is opened? Or have a "hard" roof that are really narrow segments that fold under each other (kind of like a deck of cards) when you want to open the roof? Either way, you could open the entire stadium up to the sky without having to find a place to position a single roof section off to one side.

Fred - I think that's basically what Reliant Stadium's roof consists of - the sections of the roof fold onto each other as it's opened up, and I'm sure there's a way it could be done. If you look at Reliant Stadium specifically (see the picture you linked earlier) - the structure as a whole is dominated by the two massive trusses that support the roof, and the four massive pillars that support those trusses. Those pillars take up space - space that could be otherwise used for more-open concourses, club areas, concessions, etc. The mere presence of the retractable roof affects the functionality of the stadium.

With Cowboys Stadium, the supporting structure doesn't seem to interfere as much (click).

Most difficult part of designing a retractable roof is having it strong enough to handle some of Minnesota's worst snowstorms. We all know what happened to the Metrodome when it got hit with more snow than it could handle!

I'm sorry but teflon should be completely and totally banned from this stadium or any other stadium designed in MN ever again.

They should look to Miami for the inspiration for the retractable roof. It completely disappeared behind the first base line and allowed all seats and field to be in the open.

Has Terry Ryan considered simply putting an ad in the want-ads for starting pitchers? He couldn't do any worse than what he's got now. The starter tonight was able to hold a 4 run lead for exactly one third of an inning.

Terry Ryan doesn't know what a good pitcher looks like. (And clearly good hitters either) Remember this is the guy, with Gardy, that kept Johan Santana in the bullpen in favor of Rick Reed and Kenny Rogers. This is after Santana led the team is strike-outs in the 2002 season, even though he was only starting because injuries to other pitchers.

"State law always can trump the city's charter". Cities and counties are sub-units of and created by the state.

Oh how far we have come...linky.