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Being Green

November 5, 2007 1:30 AM

Jim Henson as Kermit the Frog

Green is the color of so many wonderful things.

It's the color of grass, the color of leaves and shamrocks, the color of lovable Muppets and iconic outfield walls. It's the color of mint and pine and ivy and vines and ferns and springtime and -- OK, I'm gonna be sick.

Of course, it's the color of money (well, some of the old money at least). And the color of envy.

And it's certainly the color of ballparks.

In fact, Kermit may have had it completely wrong. It seems that if you are a ballpark, it's quite easy being green. In fact, it appears quite difficult to be anything but.

Here's a quick list of recent or future ballparks with green seats:

- Citi Field (Mets)
- McAfee Coliseum (A's)
- Minute Maid Park (Astros)
- Coors Field (Rockies)
- Camden Yards (Orioles)
- Jacobs Field (Indians)
- Comerica Park (Tigers)
- US Cellular Field (White Sox, green replaced blue a couple of years back)
- SAFECO Field (Mariners)
- Rangers Ballpark (Rangers)
- Miller Park (Brewers)
- Chase Field (Diamondbacks)
- AT&T Park (Giants)

The Yankees and Nationals new parks will have blue seats, as do Kansas City, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and San Diego. Two recent parks are, not surprisingly, all red: St. Louis and Cincinnati.

The Green Monster

That's Jacque Jones looking up in awe at the Great Greenness.

Truth be told, it may be impossible for the Twins to escape the gravity of green. I think it's that darn Fenway Park that has spoiled it for everybody. And by "spoiling it" I mean that the color is done so perfectly there that no self-respecting ballpark designer can turn away. Really, you can't take your eyes off the place.

Add the mystique of two World Championships in four years, and what was already difficult to avoid becomes pretty much a total lock. Plus, once Camden Yards adopted green, the die was cast.

So I know that I may be spitting in the wind here, but filling the new Twins park with exclusively green seats is a mistake. Maybe it's a minor one, I admit, but a mistake nonetheless.

My primary objection is that colors, like hemlines, come and go with the seasons. No matter what color you pick, someday it will look outdated. Green -- Fenway Green to be specific -- is definitely the color of the moment. But will it be the color of a few moments from now? Maybe. Probably not. No single color is completely timeless. (Of course, there's always an exception. The bright blue Metrodome seats are exactly as ugly as when the place first opened its doors in 1982.)

Having bucked so many other trends in their design, it's a little surprising to see the Twins so wedded to this one particular and very conformist color. They have staunchly avoided me-too-ness in so many regards, but here they have caved.

Now, I should be quick to point out that I think the green we've seen -- let's call it "pine forest green" to avoid some of the envy issues -- does look really quite good with the sandstone and the alleged champagne color of the canopy (alleged by Earl Santee at the Hennepin County board meeting despite the fact that both the model and the animation clearly show a silver-ish color).

I simply think that the team could do better.

Green

The green in question (click for very large version)

Actually, the heart of the mistake is to adopt any single color and use it everywhere. You might be surprised to know that, despite its reputation as a green park, Fenway is filled with a multitude of colors in its seating. When I last wrote about this subject, I included an image you should look at. Just looking casually I found five different types and colors of seating. That was a few years ago, and I bet there are even more now.

So I want to go back to that earlier suggestion, which I think is just as valid now, and make the case a little stronger. The seats back at Met Stadium were a variety of dark "ballpark" colors, including Fenway green, a couple of other greens, and several shades of dark blue. It made for a much more interesting and appealing visual (on TV, in the old films, and in photographs) than any solid color -- green, blue or red -- ever could. There is a depth to such a palette which is lost in the monochromatic approach favored by (I believe) all of the other parks built in the last decade.

Met Stadium seat colors

Met Stadium seat colors (click for the complete image)

Out at the Met, the colors appear to have been grouped in sections (my unconfirmed theory is that they bought whatever color the seat company had on hand because it was cheaper). This would be fine, but a better alternative would be to install them essentially at random. There is no maintenance or replacement issue that way. And using all dark colors within a rather small range gives depth without calling attention to itself. I'm not suggesting that it look like confetti! But multiple colors when mixed have motion (see: Georges Seurat and pointillism) that individual colors by themselves do not.

While any single color will one day be outdated, a palette of colors likely has a much longer shelf life. This assumes that you don't choose a garish or uber-trendy palette like the old Guthrie or Met Center. Speaking of the Guthrie, the new palette in the thrust stage is spectacular, and appears to have been chosen specifically to have a longer life than the one at the old building. The Twins design team should take in a show (but not Jane Eyre, which isn't really aimed at baseball folks -- maybe A Christmas Carol), wait until the house lights come up and everyone is gone, and then take a peek at just how powerful this look could be.

Guthrie Theater Wurtele Thrust Stage

The Guthrie Theater's Wurtele Thrust Stage seating

I believe this would be a classy way to finish off the seating bowl of what is already shaping up to be a very classy facility. It would certainly be unlike any major league park in existence now, and could be the leading edge of a new trend.

And there's very little downside. Installation cost likely is not a barrier, nor is anticipated maintenance cost. Very little risk, much to be gained.

A couple of people have asked about spelling words or logos in the colors of the seats. I will admit that part of me likes the idea of building in a TC logo into the seating colors, but a bigger part of me thinks it's overkill. It seems more like a soccer or college football thing than an MLB thing.

I'm still checking to see whether the color seen on the model/animation is final. The first indication I got was that there may still be discussions going on.

Of course, at the end of the song, Kermit is quite happy to be green and only green. Perhaps there is a lesson in there after all -- if you wanna listen to a Muppet!

* * *

Bein' Green
Music and Lyrics by Joe Raposo
Originally Performed by Jim Henson as Kermit the Frog

It's not that easy bein' green,
Having to spend each day the color of the leaves.
When I think it could be nicer being red, or yellow or gold
Or something much more colorful like that.

It's not that easy bein' green.
It seems you blend in with so many other ordinary things.
And people tend to pass you over 'cause you're not standing out
   like flashy sparkles in the water
Or stars in the sky.

But green's the color of Spring.
And green can be cool and friendly-like.
And green can be big like an ocean,
   or important like a mountain,
   or tall like a tree.

When green is all there is to be
It could make you wonder why, but why wonder? Why wonder?
I'm green and it'll do fine, it's beautiful!
And I think it's what I want to be.

Copyright (C) 1970, Jonico Music, Inc.

Comments


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Rick, I must say, I'm a bit confused as to the level of concern and discussion about the color of the seats. Ideally, it's something that shouldn't be a big deal - there should be people sitting in those seats.

I also think it's interesting that in your discussion of the "Fenway Green" color, the picture you choose to represent it is not of seats at all, but of the Green Monster. For me, that's what Fenway Green is all about, because I rarely see the seats themselves (and their multitudes of colors). Going to a game there or watching on TV, you notice the green of the walls and the trim on the upper decks, etc. One nice touch is the monochromatic advertisements, just white text on the green background (advertising is as much a part of the stadium experience as anything else, but the understated and tasteful green and white ads look really nice). The color of the seats isn't the most important part of the color scheme, IMO. In fact, it's way down the list.

Now, with that said, I do think that a dark blue would be a better choice to harmonize with the hues of the sandstone, steel and glass (at least with the graphic representations of those colors that we've seen so far).

However, I've got to disagree with you on the call for varied hues and shades of blue. I think that looks incredibly tacky. I think it works in a place like the Guthrie because of the overall design of the building - it is in your face with shapes, colors, sights and sounds, all playing off the building's role as a theater. Seat coloration is tricky, since the seats are the single largest item to provide color, but, again, they shouldn't be noticed too much (since you're supposed to sit in them). In most cases, I think the varied colors don't look good. Where they do look good is in indoor applications - arenas and theaters. There, the seats are part of the 'stage' in the larger sense, but the entire environment is more controlled - lighting in particular.

In the outdoor settings, the natural texture that you'll see of varying seatbacks each catching the light differently provides that variation, something I don't think comes across well in the renderings. After a couple seasons of weathering, the sheen comes off, and the seats will be a nice afterthought, not something you notice on a conscious level. That will provide a natural texture and approximation of that pointillism better than any attempt to purposefully match the color scheme to it.

In the end, I guess, the seat color should harmonize with the rest of the colors around it. Green may be a safe choice, but it's by no means a bad one. It will embrace the most dominant color the fans will see (being the green grass of the field) without dominating the palate. A deep blue would also be a solid choice, which would complement the green field without overpowering it and accent the limestone facades nicely. Just so long as the color is deep and fairly neutral, the seats can avoid taking center stage (Yankee Stadium's blue, for example, hurts my eyes - Busch's red is OK with the red brick facades and the team colors, but that's the exception rather than the rule, IMO).

Still, the seats aren't the biggest or most noticeable item. The color of the outfield walls, for example, will have a far bigger visual impact than the seats. And it's hard to argue that green is a bad choice there.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 08:50 AM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 1

Great write up Rick...I was dying to know what you thought about the green.

I agree with you that its been over-done and I'm a fan of navy blue to go along with the Twins colors, but I admit your idea of mixing the colors in at random is pretty intriguing...it would be very unique and like you pointed out, more timeless.

Hopefully the green is not final...I'm hoping hard.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 09:25 AM by Excited Highlight this comment 2

check out this link...its a new webcam from washington's new park...they're laying down the sod. you can look from behind the plate or the outfield.

pretty cool to see a ballpark in motion

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 10:08 AM by Zaq Highlight this comment 3

Alex,

Great post. Of course, seating color is one of those million details which can have a big impact on how people perceive the ballpark, so it must be carefully considered. But it's certainly not the biggest issue out there. And I don't think the green would be a terrible choice.

But you make a very good point that I should have included: When the park is full, the seat color is completely invisible.

In fact, to put together my little list of parks with green seats, I had to search -- in some cases long and hard -- for photos of the parks when they are empty. Most of the photos out there show them when they're sold out, and there's just no way to tell what color the seats are.

But that's just the publicity photos. In reality, it is possible that some games will not be sold out, and then the seat color is part of the ballpark's personality.

I hope I made clear that I LIKE the green. It looks nice. I think a deep blue would be a step up because it's one of the Twins' colors. But I think a palette of multiple colors would be an additional step up because it's less likely to look dated 25 years from now. It also has the added benefit of being an echo of Met Stadium which, like it or not, is part of Twins history.

It would be a bold choice, but they've made so many bold choices so far that this seems like something which should at least be on the radar.

But if it ends up being the green they've shown, I can live with that.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 10:46 AM by Rick 4

Hey Rick, Correction for you, PNC Park in Pittsburgh actually has dark blue seats as well and it looks great with their little bit of limestone.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 10:49 AM by Luke Highlight this comment 5

Thanks, Luke. I was going by some rather dark photos on the Pirates web site, and I just found something better which confirms what you said. I corrected it above.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 10:54 AM by Luke Highlight this comment 6

Great posts everyone! I just have to say that even though the seats are supposed to be filled during gamedays, there are still 280+ days each year when there are no games, thus the stadium "should" be open. As part of the revitalized and redevelopment of downtown west, the ballpark is going to be a big icon for that part of Minneapolis. The color of the seats are a minor detail, but it will play a major role in the overall image of the ballpark.

Rick also makes a good point about the multiple colors of seats. It may seem tacky now, but you have to look at what it will be like in 15-20 years from now as well.

On another note, I believe they added green seats in Anaheim when they renovated Angel Stadium in the late 90's. I could be wrong, but I think I remember being green seats when I visited there in 2002.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 12:39 PM by Luke Highlight this comment 7

Another reason I was looking for the blue is so they could hopefully incorporate the twins logos on the seats (click my name for an example).

I have seen this other places and think its a nice touch...

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 12:52 PM by Excited Highlight this comment 8

something like that guthrie picture would be nice but slightly different shades grouped like in the old met just looks ghetto. Then theres always the danger it could end up looking kind of like how Ralph rapson's atrocity (River West.. aka the crack stacks) looks now. Green is fine enough though and works well with the limestone. Blue general seating- no matter what shade - reminds me of 2 things: the metrodome and that antiseptic water they use in porta-potties. No thanks.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 1:04 PM by Dan Highlight this comment 9

I've always preferred green seats. I don't see the argument in green seats possibly being dated. They've been building ballparks for over 100 years with green seats. And when I see green, I don't think of any particular era at all. If anything, blue might be the one that may seem dated 30 years from now. Just my two cents on this matter.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 3:54 PM by John Highlight this comment 10

Hey, who would like to see the old fashioned logo on the back of the scoreboard (Mpls guy and St. Paul guy shaking hands) instead of the newer baseball logo?

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 4:17 PM by rp Highlight this comment 11

someone with photoshopping skills should probably put together some pictures so we could see what looks best. i would do it, but i'd want to include an astrodome type color design, and i'm not sure i could pull it off.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 4:28 PM by mike h Highlight this comment 12

rp - I like your suggestion of using the "old" Minneapolis Miller & St. Paul Saints handshake logo somewhere in the new ballpark. A while back someone on this board actually suggested building a massive bronze version of that logo at one of the entrances where fans would essentially walk underneath them shaking hands over the Mississippi River and then into the new ballpark. That would be pretty damn sweet if you ask me.

Minneapolis & St. Paul represent!

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 5:35 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 13

I happen to think that having many different shades of seat colors makes it look like you bought out all the seats from all the stadiums being torn down around the country.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 5:51 PM by RJBenny Highlight this comment 14

Rick, nice job as always! I noticed that the new park will have the same LED boards that are in the X, Target Center, and the Dome...what do you think of that? Do they belong in a ballpark?

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 6:30 PM by Andrew Highlight this comment 15

The BIG A in Anaheim used to have tan colored seats from foul pole to foul pole and red seats in the outfield. It now has all green seats...I only know this because I've spent way too much time in that dump!

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 6:32 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 16

The gentleman who founded ballparktour.com suggested that the Twins use champagne color seats to go with the canopy and limestone. The more I thought about it, the more I liked it. Talk about a different kind of retro.

Posted on November 5, 2007 at 6:33 PM by Lafferty Highlight this comment 17

Scott O'Connell, the director of ticket sales, recently spoke at the University of Minnesota about the new Twins Stadium. I wasn't able to attend, but my friend told me that he was asked a question about why the Twins have gone with green seats. Again, this is not my word, but my friend told me that O'Connell said seats only come in 3 colors: red, blue and green. He said that red "sucks" (his words) and that the team chose green because they wanted to get as far away from anything resembling the Metrodome as possible.

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 12:02 AM by John Highlight this comment 18

John,

Thanks for that great tidbit.

One part I buy: that they wanted to get as far away from Metrodome blue as possible.

The other part I do not: that seats only come in those three colors.

In my little survey mentioned at the top of this article, there were lots of different shades of green and blue seen, and lots of different detailing on the seats. Any seat manufacturer who is capable of producing 40,000 nearly-identical seats can make them whatever damn color you want -- or they don't get the gig. They also probably have numerous customization options.

It is possible that it costs more to get your specific color, and that the three colors mentioned are the "catalog" colors while everything else is "special order". But unavailable? I think not.

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 01:38 AM by Rick 19

Interesting tidbit John. It would be very interesting to know how or why they decided green. This is still preliminary, and I am sure the plans for the seat colors can change in the future as construction progresses. (until the seat installation begins in late fall of 2009)

Also, I do know they make yellow seats as well. I was at Heinz Field in Pittsburgh for a Vikings game a few years back and they had yellow seats. I just don't buy into that proclamation (supposedly) that Scott O'Connell said there are only three seat colors. I am sure if they wanted to order a certain color, they would find a seat manufacturer to produce that color. Coors Field in Denver has one row of purple seats all around the stadium in the upper deck resembling "one mile" above sea level. Also in Denver, Invesco Field has the Broncos logo formed in a pattern in the upper level of the stadium. This shows white and orange seats as well.

Nonetheless, it is a very interesting tidbit you brought up John and it would be very interesting to know for a fact how/why the Twins decided on green seats, not to mention, if green has yet to be finalized as the official seat color.

As you stated, I realize they want make the new ballpark as different as possible from the Metrodome, but Dark Blue Seats are much different than the bright blue seats you find in the Metrodome. Furthermore, being outdoors on grass will be tremendously different than the sterile environment of the Metrodome.

And to your credit John, I also heard the same reason for the green seats, but did not know if that was the "official" reason for choosing green.

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 01:30 AM by Robert Stenson Highlight this comment 20

Thanks for the clarification on the different possibilities for seat colors. I assumed there were more than three colors, but I was just relaying the information that I heard. For the record, I am in favor of dark blue seats but am fine with green if that's the final choice.

By the way, I've enjoyed reading your posts Rick. Keep up the good work!

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 09:57 AM by John Highlight this comment 21

Hi Rick,

First of all great write up. This is my first contribution to your site. I am Australian and moved to Minneapolis in May and have followed your terrific site with great interest.

I couldn’t agree more with you about developing a random-patterned approach to the seating color and the Guthrie was a wonderful example of keeping it all within one spectrum of color so as not to appear as confetti.

Growing up as a cricket fan, I have noticed in the last few years when a stadium anywhere in the world (Australia, England, New Zealand, South Africa, India) is built or undergoes expansion, almost always a variety of seat colors are chosen as opposed to a solid block of one color. It think this suits a baseball stadium particularly well because (like cricket), with so many games played, the stadium is very rarely filled to capacity as it may be during NFL games. And the seats less likely to be filled are the ones in the outfield in full view of the cameras when a home run is hit. This is all too evident at the Metrodome now. Furthermore, having a multi-hued pallet of seat colors is definitely less likely to date as poorly as the shocking blue Metrodome seats have since the eighties.

Keep up the great work!

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 10:40 AM by Charlie Highlight this comment 22

For a look at blue seats in a new park, see the new 'Nat's ballpark in my link...

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 10:43 AM by Moose Highlight this comment 23

I love the idea of a big bronze statue of the old logo that fans walk underneath. Unfortunately, with the budget so tight, it ain't gonna happen. In place of that, putting the logo on the back side of the scoreboard is a great idea.

I don't think the Met seat colors where ghetto at all. They were unique. I don't think a speckled coloring like Rick suggests would look good, but maybe I'm wrong. It might look good in the Guthrie (and it does!) due to its limited size and controlled lighting. Mike's suggestion of a Photoshop mock-up is a good one. Anyone got the skills?

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 10:47 AM by David Highlight this comment 24

The second crane is now up on the site.

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 10:58 AM by MOJO Highlight this comment 25

I'm all for either a mosaic approach that Rick mentioned, or a layering of colors similar to Dodger Stadium. The new ballpark will have several of levels which allow for more opportunities to be creative with several layers of colors. A single type of color for seating seems too monotonous and I think the Twins organization should break away from that trend of “Fenway Green”. Also take into consideration that with the recent phenomenon of Google Map or other similar programs, it is important to make the seating color interesting for the aerial view along with the fan’s orientation of the ballpark.

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 11:13 AM by Andy T Highlight this comment 26

Andy, excellent comment about the Google Maps angle. I've been thinking about that a lot lately. It's one of the reasons I dislike the Vikings "Winter Garden" idea as it hides public art that could be seen from the air.

It sure would be fun to have real-time aerial images of games in progress, wouldn't it? I'll bet it happens within a decade.

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 1:55 PM by David Highlight this comment 27

Regarding the colors, take a look at this picture of the Washington stadium in progress...as mentioned before they went with blue seats, but theres a section of red ones in center field (bleachers?). Looks like they were able to include all colors (green outfield walls, blue, red - team colors). Kinda interesting

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 3:21 PM by Twinkkies Highlight this comment 28

this might actually be a better view of it...(see name)

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 3:23 PM by Twinkkies Highlight this comment 29

Twinkkies -

I think the blue seats in addition to the green walls and green grass are a very good contrast and would not compare to the metrodome one bit. The sky also opens up the contrast, unlike the Dome where there is no natural light or blue sky and feel so enclosed with a sea of blue seats. You also have to consider there will not be an upper deck in the outfield "enclosing" the stadium such as is the case with the Metrodome.

I think the Twins should strongly consider the dark blue seats because it looks good with the green grass and green walls along with the limestone facade and limestone wall behind homeplate. I don't think the green would be bad either, but I definitely like the dark blue. Yes, the Metrodome has blue seats (bright blue to be exact) but it's totally different when you are outdoors under the open sky with the "real" green grass.

Posted on November 6, 2007 at 9:06 PM by Luke Highlight this comment 30

Regarding seat color, I like the idea of multicolored seats, but random order could end up being really tacky. Being a huge Giants fan, I despise the Dodgers - but I think they have one of the coolest retro looks with their seat color selection. Rick, with the multi leveled decks the new park will have, what about coloring the seats how Dodger Stadium has, by level? See the link for a look.

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 09:27 AM by Jeff Highlight this comment 31

In the last 4 years I've been to PNC and Comerica. Both parks have dark navy blue seats. The one thought that never entered my mind was "Metrodome"....NOT ONCE!

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 10:13 AM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 32

Kevin, that's probably because Comerica's seats aren't blue at all - they're green. (see link).

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 1:30 PM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 33

Alex,

You're so right..I completely mis-spoke, I meant PNC and Citizens Bank Park. I named the wrong bank.

Think of how many bank named ballparks/arenas/stadiums there are. PNC park, Citizens Bank Park, Chase Field, Wells Fargo Arena, Mellon Arena, Key Arena...I'm sure I'm missing about 50 more.

But I don't think US Bank has their name on anything? Maybe they'll put their name on the new Twins ballpark?

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 4:00 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 34

Anyone have a picture of the Met with the Met Center in the background, or Visa Versa. Seeing that the new ballpark will be across the street from Target Center makes me think of the old days when the Met Center was accrss from the old Met.

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 4:35 PM by CTM Highlight this comment 35

CTM,

Click on my name for a picture.

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 4:52 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 36

If the new park is named after a bank, can we all agree to call it Killebrew Field or Puckett Park?

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 4:58 PM by Lafferty Highlight this comment 37

I look at the webcam every day and still, a part of me cant believe that ballpark is going to fit on that site.

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 5:22 PM by stpaulgirl Highlight this comment 38

Lincoln Financial Field, TCF Bank Stadium, Great American Ballpark, Fleet Center, isn't there an Ameriprise something? Invesco Field..

I'm guessing the Twins park will be called US Bank Ballpark or Wells Fargo Field.

Wells Fargo has their name on the arena at the ASU campus and I think they have their name on a college football stadium somewhere else...They may want to tap into the MLB stadium market, plus isn't the chairman of Wells Fargo buddy buddy with Smilin' Carl?

Whichever bank it is, they'll stock the ballpark with their ATM only and if you use a different card, watch the fee be like $5 to go along with the crazy concession prices.

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 7:13 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 39

Why can't Rick be on the #*&$! Ballpark Authority?

These ideas are great -- and practical. There's no reason to louse up a ~$400 million public investment.

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 8:08 PM by spycake Highlight this comment 40

anyone think the multifoods tower could get an ad like that scraper beyond right field at comerica?

Posted on November 7, 2007 at 8:46 PM by dan Highlight this comment 41

How about the old Twins logo done up with the St. Paul twin and Minneapolis twin on either side of the score board and every time the Twin's score a run they shake hands or give a high five or something... of course that would cost a bit of money to do it right. Don't they have the Liberty Bell ring in Philly? The exploding scoreboard in Chicago.

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 12:16 AM by Roger Highlight this comment 42

I like good old fashioned fireworks after a homerun.

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 10:21 AM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 43

stpaulgirl, take a look at the size of the trucks parked on the lot and I think you get a better appreciation for the size of the parcel. It's small compared to some other parks but it's not THAT small.

I really like the idea of having a ballpark embedded into the city. I like the way the chicago parks are IN the city.

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 10:57 AM by moda253 Highlight this comment 44

If Land O Lakes gets the naming rights, you think they'll make room for the "fireworks in a milk jug" piece of art that was in the dome in 06?? Can't understand why that was taken down this year...

Regarding the seating bowl, I think this green is going to help keep the park looking more like a park and less like a fabricated, industrial structure on non-game days. Green invokes the same comfort and sense of earthiness that real trees and grass would do, both of which are currently lacking in that part of town.

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 11:36 AM by John K Highlight this comment 45

Roger - That's not a bad idea either. I would like to know if anyone else here has some good ideas on how to integrate the old "Minneapolis & St. Paul handshake over the Mississippi" Twins logo in the new ballpark. A few of us have suggested some ideas above.

Click on my name to see what the logo looks like if it's been a few years and you need to refresh you memory.

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 12:33 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 46

I just noticed that the new Colts stadium will have multi-colored seats (well just 2 colors to be exact). Click name to see

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 2:28 PM by Karl Highlight this comment 47

My top guesses concerning naming the field:

Best Buy Park
Wells Fargo Field
3M Park
General Mills Stadium
Travelers Park
Thrivent Field

Not that I'm a fan of a company being plastered on the side of our beautiful new park, but I sure do hope it's a name that will stay around for a while. Others have mentioned Puckett Park, which is a great idea.

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 3:05 PM by Jeff Highlight this comment 48

The green seats are fine. The more I see the renderings and how the park will look from the air they grow on me. I agree it blends well with the predominant stone being used around our park. I'm just not a huge fan of blue, maybe it's the whole metrodome thing. And some cool feature for homeruns on the order of the liberty bell at the phillies park is a great idea. I love the idea of the "twins" from the traditional logo shaking hands. The fans would eat it up.

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 4:04 PM by Tim Highlight this comment 49

LOVE the idea of the Twins shaking hands across the scoreboard. I also still want that logo facing outside the park as well (backside of the scoreboard seems best). We should do something unique so folks outside the park (whether there's a game or not) have something recognizable to look at that says, "This is the home of the Twins."

Is anyone packaging up these ideas and sending them to Dave St. Peter and/or the Ballpark Authority?

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 5:22 PM by David Highlight this comment 50

Green is fine. Dark blue would be better. Champange?

Here's the deal: If they're going to name the stadium "Wheaties Field", how about Wheaties-box orange for the dang color of the seats?

BTW, The logo with the MPLS and STP Twins shaking hands across the Mississipi river is by far the coolest sports logo in the history of sport!

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 8:49 PM by Erik Highlight this comment 51

I agree that the MPLS. St. Paul logo is the best of all time, but the shaking hands thing after a homerun is cheesey and nerdy. I think the logo should be a part of the new stadium but lets not try to create some gimicky tradition that all other parks already do. I agree with the traditional fireworks... and maybe strippers.

Posted on November 8, 2007 at 10:53 PM by Matt C. Highlight this comment 52

Rick do you know what happen to the possibility of the twin towers at the foul poles? And is the bullpen outfield wall glass?

Posted on November 9, 2007 at 01:34 AM by kdoko Highlight this comment 53

Sweet! Thanks Kevin in AZ!

Posted on November 9, 2007 at 1:15 PM by CTM Highlight this comment 54

I didn't know how to post on this site, but I posted an image of what blue seats with the TC logo in seats might look like at the new ballpark over on www.minnescraper.com. It also shows more limestone at the outfield wall. Click on my name for the link.

Posted on November 9, 2007 at 8:23 PM by Andy Highlight this comment 55

Wow, after seeing the rendering from Andy, I think blue is the only way to go with the seats.

Posted on November 9, 2007 at 10:55 PM by Steve Highlight this comment 56

I agree!!

Can someone PLEASE send that altered picture to Dave St Peter or the Ballpark Authority!?!? We NEED to switch it to that dark blue...I like it much much better.

Posted on November 10, 2007 at 02:24 AM by Excited Highlight this comment 57

Please, someone, email that picture to DSP!!!!!

I was really starting to like the green seats myself, but seeing is believing! The dark blue looks great!

Posted on November 10, 2007 at 11:18 AM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 58

seriously.....can we move on from the whole green vs. blue seats discussion?!

i know some of you are really passionate about the topic, but green seats look really good and it seems to be a moot point now. don't you think the whole group looked at renderings of both green & blue seats hundreds of times during planning before approving a final scheme? they obviously choose green for a reason.

not trying to hate, but i don't think emailing mock ups of something they have already seen multiple times is going to change the Twins, Minneapolis & Hennepin County's mind.

Posted on November 10, 2007 at 6:22 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 59

Wrigley Field also has green seats.

Posted on November 11, 2007 at 12:24 PM by jb Highlight this comment 60

I agree with Betaband. I am sure the Twins looked at many, many, different concepts of seat colors/arrangements prior to selecting the green.

Yes, I like the dark blue as well and it was nice to see a rendering of dark blue, but reality is that the Twins seem happy with the green seats. Even though nothing is official yet as far as seat colors, I am sure the Twins reviewed several different concepts (including dark blue) and seem to be happy with the green seats.

Posted on November 11, 2007 at 12:32 PM by Michael Haroldson Highlight this comment 61

In both the meetings last week with the City Council and Ballpark Authority, the Twins said, while referring to the model, "What you see is what you'll get". I would assume by this statement that the decision on the green seats is a done deal.

Posted on November 11, 2007 at 3:31 PM by John Highlight this comment 62

Just so you know, I asked the question very specifically and got a non-committal response.

But Betaband is correct to suggest that there have probably been lots of discussions and opinions from various corners. They wouldn't have put that color on the model and in the renderings if they weren't at least leaning that way.

But I hardly think that the color of the seats would have been a deal-breaker for the Hennepin County commissioners. They would likely have approved the plan even if it was clear that the seat color was not yet determined.

Keep in mind that, in such a setting, the only thing the team and the architects can say is something like, "What you see is what you get." The county was voting on the overall design, and not necessarily the details. There were plenty of minor discrepancies between the model and the renderings that could have been hauled out for discussion, but that was not the point of the vote.

Obviously, some aspects of the design are more critical than others. Seat color is hardly a critical component. It's just one of the many millions of decisions which have to be made (some of which have bigger consequences than others). But if I could have verified that the seat color was a done deal, I might not have started this thread...

Posted on November 11, 2007 at 3:50 PM by Rick 63

green is the better color. Dark blue is much too cold and stark. Sitting in the sun watching a game and seeing green is much better. Plus dark seats will get hot in the sun.

Posted on November 11, 2007 at 9:32 PM by Paul Highlight this comment 64

Dead horse. Let's move on. How about development? What will the atmosphere be like around the ballpark?

Posted on November 11, 2007 at 10:39 PM by Matt C. Highlight this comment 65

How about shades of green, different for each level - cascading from dark green for the lower level to light green for the top level.

Posted on November 12, 2007 at 3:11 PM by rb Highlight this comment 66

okay, now it's getting ridiculous..yes, let's move on...honestly at this point i don't care if the seats are hot pink, just the fact that they won't be located inside that toilet on chicago ave is enough for me!

Posted on November 12, 2007 at 3:45 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 67

What do people think about the main plaza areas being elevated above street level? How well will the stadium integrate with bars and restaurants in the immediate area (if there are or will be any)?

Posted on November 12, 2007 at 4:23 PM by B Highlight this comment 68

I think the main plaza off of right field there will be spectacular. I can imagine taking the 6 from Uptown up Hennepin Ave, getting off the bus on 6th Street and being able to see all the way down to home plate (practically). I think that's the part of the site... how close it is to the main strip of bars on First... it's going to bring that whole area together... Block E... the Warehouse District... game nights will have downtown hopping in a way the Dome never does. I'm so ready for 2010.

Posted on November 12, 2007 at 10:05 PM by Don T Highlight this comment 69

that's right Don. Imagine sitting outside Glueck's and being able to (practically) see the field. It'll be like the warehouse districts backyard playground.
As for development closer to the stadium, I'd imagine it would have to be raised to street level, at least until the HERC plant is gone in 12 years. Funny how I'm already banking on that.

Posted on November 13, 2007 at 6:48 PM by mike h Highlight this comment 70

Some people apparently won't stop in the fight to stop the stadium. Click on my name for the article. Fortunately, the judge that's hearing the case has put up a very high price for the suit to proceed.

Posted on November 16, 2007 at 10:32 AM by Pikachu732001 Highlight this comment 71

Yet Another Threadjack in Progress:

According to Sports Business Daily's site, the Twins are going to select Sportservice as the concessionare at the new park. I'd give you the link to the article, but the site is subscription-only(and it's paid subscriptions only) thus the lack of a link.

Posted on November 16, 2007 at 12:02 PM by Pikachu732001 Highlight this comment 72

Sportservice...er ah... Is that good or bad?

Posted on November 16, 2007 at 2:17 PM by J2K Highlight this comment 73

Don't worry about Leslie Davis and his lawsuit. The guy is a well-known crackpot. His solution to the state's transportation problems is to magically get the banks to pay for it all.

Posted on November 16, 2007 at 3:00 PM by David Highlight this comment 74

J2K, I think it depends on how Sportservice does, whether they do it like Petco Park where the food there is varied, or if it's like new Busch where it's pretty much the same items repackaged as different stands.

I was hoping for someone like Levy Restaurants, They do a very good job at the venues they service.

Posted on November 16, 2007 at 3:20 PM by Pikachu732001 Highlight this comment 75

i hope centerplate doesn't spit in my dome dog because of this.

i hope sportservice has good hot dogs. hormel preferably. or kosher dogs like at comiskey.

Posted on November 18, 2007 at 2:53 PM by elston gunn Highlight this comment 76

We need updates the last site photo you posted is over a month old.

Posted on November 19, 2007 at 4:22 PM by pf 386 Highlight this comment 77

pf 386 - I'm not too worried about site photos because of the web-cam on the Twins site.

Plus, I'm excited because I'm headded to the Cities for the first time since the project began this weekend (I live "up north" in Bemidji), and will be sure to drive past the project to get a feel for the progress...

Posted on November 19, 2007 at 6:22 PM by Moose Highlight this comment 78

Moose, the ballpark webcam is definitely a nice feature to have to follow the progress, but it is really nice to see the stadium construction from a different perspective as well. The "site photos" add a different perspective and may allow us to see what might not be visible from the webcam.

Posted on November 19, 2007 at 9:21 PM by Jason Highlight this comment 79

Quote:"According to Sports Business Daily's site, the Twins are going to select Sportservice as the concessionare at the new park".

That is correct. The Twins have chosen Delaware North Sportservice as their concession company over Levy, Wildside Catering (Xcel Energy Center), D'amico Cucina Catering and those morons that run the Metrodome Centerplate. There will be an "Official" announcement soon.

Posted on December 12, 2007 at 09:46 AM by Timmy! Highlight this comment 80


This page was last modified on January 21, 2010.



"You talk about the magic, the aura, but what really makes a stadium is the fans. Concrete doesn't talk back to you. Chairs don't talk back to you. It's the people who are there, day in, day out, that makes the place magic."

– Bernie Williams

Explore the Site

Here are 50 images chosen randomly from the 3045 found on this site. Click the image to be taken to the original post. A new list is created every 10 minutes.


First Avenue at left, bike parking area at lower right



Plaza overview from the A ramp






From the roof of the Minnekahda building (courtesy Bruce Lambrecht).






What has been actually built so far is only a tiny subset of this vision.



Through the windows of the Metropolitan Club you can see one of the displays of Met Stadium memorabilia.






The Northstar station.



Detail enclosing the main ticket window area






Guerrier had tossed a ball to a fan wearing a Twins jersey, who dropped it. If you're going to wear the uniform, he was saying, you gotta make the play. The ball ultimately went to a fan wearing a Randy Moss jersey, and everybody laughed.












The equivalent spot on the model.






Jose Alvalade XXI Stadium in Lisbon, Portugal has towers much like I'm imagining to hold up our canopy while also making a bold statement on the horizon






Seat logos in place



A sampling of seats at Fenway Park






This is what it looked like during the first open house in March.






Here is the most recent outfield configuration, captured from the animation video. We probably shouldn't make too much of the logos seen on the scoreboard: Best Buy, Dairy Queen, Target, Pepsi, Dodge and Qwest...



TF: template-based?



Having fun. Installing limestone. Good gig.



View from the batter's eye seats



Forbes Field



This shows the area where the Northstar platform connects with the ballpark (that translucent oval). Above that is the area which will house the Twins operations offices.



The outfield stands as viewed through the unnumbered gate






There are no caddies in baseball.









The view through a construction "knothole".



Steel going up fast.



Photo by Jared Wieseler



Oh, nevermind.






Bag checking at Ball Park Lanes was incredibly simple, as was the pick up later. The line was short and fast-moving.



This view looks through the opening in the fence where the crosswalk will be.



Philly



Click to enlarge



I have no idea what this is or does, but as gear goes, it's totally boss, man. (Attached to a railing just off of the Trap)



The electronic sign has been corrected (and never forget that ballpark is one word, not two)









Glass!





Glossary

BPM - Ballpark Magic

BRT - Bus Rapid Transit

DSP - Dave St. Peter

FSE - Full Season Equivalent

FYS - Fake Yankee Stadium (see also: NYS)

HERC - Hennepin Energy Resource Company (aka the Garbage Burner)

HPB - Home Plate Box

HRP - Home Run Porch

LC - Legends Club

LRT - Light Rail Transit

MBA - Minnesota Ballpark Authority (will own Target Field)

MOA - Mall of America

MSFC - Minnesota Sports Facilities Commission (owns the Metrodome)

NYS - New Yankee Stadium

SRO - Standing Room Only

STH - Season Ticket Holder

TCFBS - TCF Bank Stadium

TF - Target Field

Selected Bibliography - Analysis
 


(1993)
 


First Edition (1992)
 


Second Edition (2006)
 


(2008)
 

Selected Bibliography - Surveys
 


(1975)
 


Second Edition (1987)
 


Not a "Third Edition" exactly,
but it replaced the above title
(2000)
 


(2000, large coffee table)
 


Original edition (2000, round)
 


Revised edition (2006, round)
 


(2001, medium coffee table)
 


(2002, small coffee table)
 


(2003, medium coffee table)
 


(2004, very large coffee table)
 


(2006, very large coffee table)
 


Combines the previous two titles
(2007, medium coffee table)
 

Selected Bibliography - Nostalgia
 


(1992)
 


Book and six ballpark miniatures
(2004)
 

Complete Bibliography

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