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Let's Review

March 20, 2008 1:03 AM

COMMENT

So, have I missed anything?

Thanks to everyone for keeping the discussion interesting. Let me take a moment to highlight some things that really deserve to be extracted from the comments.

First, in case you missed it, there is a short review linked to a simply marvelous primer on the new park over at MinnPost. In case you're unfamiliar with it, MinnPost was created by some former Stribbers who thought there just might be a better way to do local journalism on the web. They were right. It's a very worthwhile endeavor.

The author of that article mentions a gone-but-not-forgotten group of baseball-lovers who tried (but, alas, failed) to save outdoor baseball in Minnesota a generation ago. Here's a favorite photo I snapped back at the groundbreaking:

These guys seriously have the right to say, "I told you so."

In the feature is this very interesting slide:

To the best of my knowledge, this was the first time any specific pricing information had been leaked. No source is quoted, but it hardly seems made up. Until now, I've heard only generalities about keeping things "affordable."

I can't say that anything there is a surprise. My first reaction is to say that things look pretty expensive. But there's some inflation there, and without knowing the details it's hard to praise or condemn. It looks like you'll be paying about what you're used to for the quality of seat you're used to. That it isn't a gigantic increase is a relief. But these are preliminary.

On the other hand, there is some disappointing news in that article: some of the seats at the new park will actually be smaller than those in the Metrodome, and that the standard seat width will be identical. The standard leg room will increase by two measly inches. The real improvements are only for the "rattle your jewelry" crowd.

Of course, if you pay more money, you'll get a wider seat. Pay more money and you'll get more leg room. But for the rabble (among which I count myself), it'll be the same old same old. That's disappointing, to say the least.

That profile also accomplishes something I'd been working on: profile comparisons. It's been tough to come up with architectural information on the Metrodome, but I did confirm that the profile of the new park bears a rather striking similarity to the Metrodome in some key aspects. Most notably, the rake (steepness) of the upper deck is nearly identical. And the worst upper deck seats in the main grandstand of the new park are almost identical in distance to their equivalents in the Metrodome. This cannot be said of many new parks, who push upper decks even farther up than their predecessors. So, in a way, the Twins can be complemented for not making things that much worse for the cheap seat fans.

I had previously published an overlay of the seating configurations, showing that most of the truly reprehensible Metrodome views will not be duplicated in the new park. The outfield seating, specifically, will be much better. Of course, those seats will be one inch narrower than the Metrodome seats, so there's a trade-off. As far as I can tell, there will be no bench seating in the new park. Another disappointment.

Also from the comments, I want to refer you to some nifty construction photos over at minnescraper. I've been out to the site several times during my recent hiatus, and actually have a large stash of construction photos to be seen here in the coming days. But, truth be told, construction photos all start to look alike after a while. Let me offer this one from my most recent trip:

Remind you of anything...? (click the image to see what it reminds me of)

OK, I'm feeling a bit cranky tonight, but happy to be back at it. Thanks for your patience. These hiatus times are going to happen and they're beyond my control. But, I'll always be back as soon as I can. This is what I'd rather be doing!

Comments

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great to have a new post, rick. good takes and great comments. and i gotta say, seeing that trophy again made me giddy. imagine an october full-moon night in 2015 (sooner?) our beloved boys win the thing again in the new digs. can't freakin wait.

Posted on March 20, 2008 at 08:24 AM by yeahklye 1

I totally agree about some of the "disappointments" in the new ballpark. I am very surprised there will be no "bench seating" in the left field grandstand. I am further surprised that there will be narrower seats in the new ballpark than its predecessor, the Metrodome. Not that its a huge deal, but its suprising to say the least. The new ballpark will still be one heck of a ballpark in just two years.

Posted on March 20, 2008 at 12:27 PM by Luke H. 2

I would disagree with the comments regarding the upper deck. In fact, many new parks have brought their upper decks closer to the playing field, not only in height above the playing field but also the distance outward. Off the top of my head, I know for sure that Citizens Bank Park, PNC Park, Turner Field, Citi Park, Great American Ballpark, and Nationals Park all accomplished this and there's probably others, I just don't know them for sure.

Posted on March 20, 2008 at 1:12 PM by DJ 3

Perhaps the narrower seats will help motivate people to stay in shape.

Posted on March 20, 2008 at 1:44 PM by Lafferty 4

The narrow seats will allow more seats to fit into the ballpark. I'd rather have a 1-inch skinnier seat than no seat at all due to the game being sold out.

Posted on March 20, 2008 at 4:36 PM by johnk 5

All the narrower seats will do is discourage people from buying more overpriced concessions. I am upset that there is no bleacher seating in the outfield. I think all outfield seating should be bleacher. More room to spread out for low attendance games and more room to pack in the fannies for the popular games. This should be something the Twins could still change. Maybe they need folks like us to voice our displeasure, especially when it sounds like the seats to be smaller than the dome are the outfield seats...Hell, make them bleachers then..DUH!!!!!!!!!!

Posted on March 20, 2008 at 4:48 PM by kevin in az 6

johnk,

I understand what you're trying to say..However you can fit more people in a row of bleachers than you can a row of narrow seats. Narrow seats still have 1 inch arm rests between each seat which would be eliminated if the row were to by just one long bench...with a back rest of course!!!

Posted on March 20, 2008 at 5:21 PM by kevin in az 7

I'm ok with the bleacher idea as long as they have back supports.

Posted on March 20, 2008 at 5:24 PM by JohnF 8

Looks like they are laying more steel beams for the plaza starting tomorrow. Click my name for link.

Posted on March 20, 2008 at 8:00 PM by JohnF 9

That MinnPost piece with the comparisons in section between the Dome and the new park are interesting, but I'm not sure they're accurate. For example, the one they pass off as the home plate section has the Dome's seats going right to field level. Anyone who's ever watched a game on TV knows that the Dome's first row of seats behind the plate is a good 15 feet off the ground! I don't doubt that the rakes and seating geometries they compare are accurate, but the relation to the field is something that doesn't come through in those drawings, and I think it's one of the most important advantages that the new park will have.

Posted on March 21, 2008 at 10:36 AM by Alex B. 10

I agree with Alex B. Those cross sections of the dome appear to be very crude. The overhang of the upper deck in those cross sections of the dome are much closer than we all know it to be. I think it is probabaly 10-15 feet closer in the crude cross section than what it actually is at the dome. I just don't think it's accurate in that slide show at all.
Rick, is this something you could compare in actual scale?

Posted on March 21, 2008 at 11:42 AM by J2K 11

The source listed on those profiles is HOK Sport, so they are probably very close if not exact.

As I say, I've had some trouble coming up with architectural profiles of the Metrodome seating. If someone has such a thing, forward it to me (rick at twins ballpark 2010 dot com) and I'll try to verify those diagrams.

Posted on March 21, 2008 at 12:06 PM by Rick 12

Rick, I didn't mean to say that the Metrodome seating dimensions aren't exact, I'm sure that they are. And in that sense, they clearly show the relative angles involved in the seating decks - that comparison is very effective.

However, the first row behind the plate at the Dome is a good 15 feet above the playing field, but at the new ballpark it will be right at ground level. That relationship does not come across in those section comparisons. I don't know if that's an error or a misinterpretation (i.e. that's a section along the baseline, not behind the plate), but there's clearly something missing there.

Posted on March 21, 2008 at 12:33 PM by Alex B. 13

I still disagree with the accuarcy of the dome cross section. It looks like there are about 10-12 rows over hanging the first deck, but in reality there are no more than 5 or so at most.

Posted on March 21, 2008 at 1:45 PM by J2K 14

did anyone else read this article about the yankees' ticket prices?

holy crap

(see name for link)

Posted on March 21, 2008 at 5:30 PM by annoying customer 15

Do to what I've been hearing about Busch Stadium III from the Greet Machine (3/24 post) and the baseball fever forums, I'm a little concerned about the Twins' ballpark, since it's from the same firm that did Busch III.

Posted on March 29, 2008 at 11:24 PM by CTM 16

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"You talk about the magic, the aura, but what really makes a stadium is the fans. Concrete doesn't talk back to you. Chairs don't talk back to you. It's the people who are there, day in, day out, that makes the place magic."

– Bernie Williams

Explore the Site

Here are 50 images chosen randomly from the 3004 found on this site. Click the image to be taken to the original post. A new list is created every 10 minutes.

Here you can see the real beauty of the Seventh Street side, and get a solid sense of why the overall design really works. The building's purpose is clearly visible, there are numerous connections from inside to outside, scale is nicely mitigated, the stone is attractively used, materials are pleasantly mixed and truly complementary. It's just a winner in so many ways.

This isn't a very good picture, but it is the current view of the inside of a suite.

A view from up (and in) the street.

Larry DiVito, mowing

Location for automated ticket machines

That is the gun-metal gray wall of The Stadium just beyond the elevated tracks.

The east wall of the building looks like it will be the first part completed. These are probably supports for the plaza, and they hug the very edge of the site.

Looking up Seventh Street (click to see what it looked like from the same spot in 1950)

Skywalk over Seventh

Steel meets concrete, with the last rays of sun visible through the suite and concourse openings at left.

At the end of the balcony you can see down the promenade.

A view straight on of the Pro Shop area and ticket windows (just barely visible). The piers you see beneath the plaza are already almost completed (see final photo).

And another angle looking at the overhang area of the right field pavilion. This looks to me like a great area to watch a game.

Click to enlarge.

This is where the main ticket office will be.

Finished product (Field Terrace)

Legends Club seats feature in-seat service

Window area sketched by the limestone

Look closely at the overhang. You'll see the on the right it is flush with the fence, and then it sticks out farther and farther as you move toward center. More fun for Michael Cuddyer.