More Model Talk
June 6, 2007 11:57 PM
MOJO and I had a chance to talk with Dave St. Peter over the ballpark concept model in the TCF atrium yesterday. Perhaps some of you were there as well. The crowd was small but very attentive.
Actually, MOJO served up most of the questions and I sat back and listened, chiming in only for clarification on a couple of points. Frankly, I would make a terrible investigative reporter. If you come here looking for juicy inside scoops, I'm sorry to say you'll probably be disappointed. Analysis, on the other hand, now that's my thing.
But we did get some very interesting tidbits.
The first one follows a bit on a thread which keeps resurfacing, and the point of which I am only now starting to get. After comparing the new park to the Dome in my previous article, I concluded that almost every seat in the new park will have a great view of the action, far better (and more comfortable on the neck) than the Metrodome.
But to do that, they've essentially gotten rid of all the bad seats. This sounds great until you realize that the better the seat, the higher the price. Bad seats = cheap seats. Good seats = expensive seats.
For those of us who can't really afford to venture into the lower deck or even infield seating, this could be a pretty big problem. When I look at the seating diagrams, I fully expect to see most games from the so-called "View Level" (which is just beneath the canopy) -- and probably pretty far down the lines.
Though the dollars will probably be different, it's instructive to look at the pricing levels at other similar parks such as PNC Park, Safeco Field and the one in San Francisco (which changes name too often for me to keep up). The Twins will likely create similar break points, with similar relative pricing levels.
This is the left field pavilion in the original concept model. The restaurant pictured to its right has been moved, and the seating area has been extended at least one full section toward center.
When asked what changes have been made in the design since the concept model was built, the first thing St. Peter said is that they're trying to add more outfield seating. The left field pavilion has already been extended toward center by one full section, and may get more. The restaurant which was shown in the outfield has been moved to the building in the left field corner, which creates a lot more room.
Someone else asked about ticket prices, and Dave's answer hasn't changed much. He said that though they haven't settled on anything, they'll be trying to keep it as affordable as possible. That segued into a discussion of how gaining control of concessions will actually help keep ticket prices down. That led one person to say that he already pays more for food than he does for the ticket. (Though I didn't let on, the discussion put me in the mind of this article about ballpark prices over at The Hardball Times.)
The renderings and concept model differ here. MOJO thinks this is the perfect place for a party deck. Dave St. Peter seemed to agree!
MOJO wanted clarification about the roof area on that building at the left field foul pole. St. Peter said that they'd had discussions about putting a party area there, and even had it in the design at one point. He didn't quite commit to it, but seemed to think it was a definite possibility.
Many people have asked me this, so I asked Dave about the roof of the parking ramp which dominates the view beyond center field (the so-called "B ramp"). The answer surprised me, because it turns out that those ramps are owned and/or controlled at least in part by the Federal government. Any time you build something over an interstate highway, the Federal Highway Administration has a say. This also goes for the plaza and walking bridge which will also cross I-394.
Dave said he had heard all kinds of ideas tossed around for the top of that ramp, including a restaurant, and the Twins are eager to be involved in any planning which takes place, but technically have no control over it. This sounded like one of the many legal details which have to be resolved in any project of this size.
On the other side of the park, the team does control the land to the south on which their parking lot will be built. They have development rights for 15 years on this land, and though it will be surface parking when the ballpark opens in 2010, it's entirely possible that something else will happen with that land before their option expires.
A few weeks ago there were sand volleyball courts here. When the park opens, this will be surface parking. Maybe one day there will be something more interesting built on top of that parking...
On one hand, this is a bit disappointing. I've talked before about the neighborhood issues, and one thing that could help resolve the walkability of the area would be for something nice to be built on that land with retail storefronts opening onto Seventh Street. With that area remaining as surface parking below the bridge, there will be no disguising that the ballpark is essentially built between two freeway-style bridges. That, in turn, works against the neighborhood feel that the team clearly covets.
On the other hand, it's at least a hopeful situation. St. Peter made a point of saying that they don't want what happened to the Metrodome to happen at the new park. That is, they don't want their crown jewel to sit in a desolate landscape. Having the development rights means they can do something about it themselves. On balance, and over the long haul, it's likely an acceptable situation.
There were a few specific questions about things seen on the model, and Dave was quick to dismiss the model as just a concept that is now almost four months old. We shouldn't get hung up, he said, on any of the details we see there.
The proposed wooden screen covering the circulation ramp on Fifth Street (at left is the equivalent screen on Seventh Street).
One of those details on which I wanted some clarification was the screen which is pictured on the Fifth Street facade covering the circulation ramps. It looked to me like bamboo at first glance, but Dave clarified that the designers had suggested the wood lattice-like covering as a means of softening the appearance of those ugly ramps and integrating them with the rest of the facade. But he quickly added that nothing like that was in the current budget.
Seeing people moving in those ramps is very important in connecting what goes on inside to the neighborhood outside. It also lends an air of excitement and anticipation when approaching the ballpark on foot. How they solve that isn't as important as making sure that it does look integrated with the rest of the building without hiding the purpose of the area.
Next, I asked if there were buildings in downtown Minneapolis which were built with the type of limestone they expect to use. Again, the answer surprised me. They haven't actually picked out the stone yet, and have not exactly decided what color it will be, how rough it will be cut, and other such details. He did mention the WCCO-TV building as one that they like, and another building in downtown St. Paul (the name of which I didn't catch).
One of the diagrams in the display that I hadn't seen before held a small but interesting detail. The park will be connected to the "A ramp" to the south (from which I have been taking my site status photos) by a skyway to be built over Seventh Street, and possibly connected to an escalator outside the ballpark. In addition, there has been talk of making a direct connection with the "B ramp" onto the plaza, or maybe directly into the park.
There was some scoreboard talk, and it's clear that St. Peter wants to make sure every seat in the place has access to instant replays in addition to vital stats. The current plan has the scoreboard directly above the bullpens, but St. Peter seemed concerned about fans sitting in foul territory down the left field line, whose view could be blocked by the restaurant building there.
This sounded like a very open issue. As I look at the design, it seems obvious that a second large scoreboard will be needed, perhaps over the main entry gates from the plaza. This would cover the left field pavilion nicely as well as anyone else whose view of the other scoreboard is blocked. Imagine that: TWIN scoreboards! That would be an MLB first, I think, and what better franchise to do it!
It would also offer an opportunity to implement a great idea I saw in the drawings for Cisco Field (currently proposed for the Oakland Athletics). In that design, the scoreboard is double-sided, allowing people on the plaza outside the park to see at least some of what's going on. This would be a great amenity to have, especially if the plaza ends up with green space of any sort.
This is the back of the Cisco Field scoreboard, showing video to folks out on the plaza.
At events like this, Dave St. Peter always seems to be a very gracious and willing ballpark ambassador. I'm sure he hears the same gripes and ideas over and over, but he doesn't let on. And who among us wouldn't like to be in a position to say, "This ballpark needs more outfield seats!" I'll bet that designing a ballpark, though full of headaches and pressures, is really a lot of fun.
I think what I'll take away from this brief update is the sense that many things are still being decided, and the Twins staff is very active in these discussions. That is essential if this is to be a great ballpark. HOK, for all their strengths, is only as good as their collaborators. Their style is now recognizable, to the point of being almost a ballpark cliche. Their parks have something of a cookie-cutter quality.
But Dave's comments made it clear once again that the Twins do not want a cookie cutter park. They want to build "a landmark which can last 50 to 75 years -- or longer." How the Twins implement and shape the HOK style, as well as how they realize all of the millions of details, will determine just how successful and timeless this ballpark becomes.
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This page was last modified on January 21, 2010.
"You talk about the magic, the aura, but what really makes a stadium is the fans. Concrete doesn't talk back to you. Chairs don't talk back to you. It's the people who are there, day in, day out, that makes the place magic."
– Bernie Williams
Explore the Site
Here are 50 images chosen randomly from the 3045 found on this site. Click the image to be taken to the original post. A new list is created every 10 minutes.
Working on the connecting LRT tracks (this view looks up Fifth Street toward downtown.)
Packed SRO beneath the notch.
This view looks up Fifth Street toward downtown and shows how the LRT tracks sort of snuggle up to the ballpark.
Guerrier had tossed a ball to a fan wearing a Twins jersey, who dropped it. If you're going to wear the uniform, he was saying, you gotta make the play. The ball ultimately went to a fan wearing a Randy Moss jersey, and everybody laughed.
This is the HERC Premonade with railroad tracks snaking beneath. (I think this should be named the Halsey Hall Premonade. Seriously.)
Secret entrance exposed!
Row indicators are spray-painted with stencils over rust and peeling paint.
I'm too short to see over that wall. How about a little platform or something?
Work on one of the side panels
Just up the foul line, it looks like the base of the wall in foul territory on the right side.
JohnW provides this shot of a construction barricade on First Avenue
The plaza as viewed from across the park. The right field overhang section will be built just in from where the plaza supports are.
Here's the Northstar platform.
Detail of view to the northeast (Source: LP)
The art panels on the Fifth Street facade as viewed from the top of the Minnekahda building.
7:42 PM It moves to the left in the image and begins to blossom.
Looking through the Oliva gate, you can see the outfield stands.
Let's be honest and say that this promenade, which will face the HERC plant, won't be the most exciting part of the streetscape. It has to be provided for circulation reasons, but there won't be much to see unless vendors and other attractions take root here.
Thanks for all the hard work out there, Cold Safety-Line Dudes. (I'm glad that my job does not require safety lines...)
Looking across the top of the B parking ramp. Notice that signage will block any attempts at seeing the game from up there. Also take note of the glassed in area which is part club and part office space for the Ballpark Authority.
Hey! An unnumbered gate!
From the roof of the Minnekahda building (courtesy Bruce Lambrecht).
4th inning in the nearly deserted Home Run Porch View Level in left.
I don't think this will remain a knothole, but the view is pretty cool.
First Avenue at left, bike parking area at lower right
Because of the scale, it's sometimes hard to realize that there are actual guys down there doing the tough work! Here they are getting ready to pour a footing.
Once again, Noah is holding his ears because of the traffic noise.
The view out Gate 6 "Oliva".
Carew atrium menu part 1
BPM - Ballpark Magic
BRT - Bus Rapid Transit
DSP - Dave St. Peter
FSE - Full Season Equivalent
FYS - Fake Yankee Stadium (see also: NYS)
HERC - Hennepin Energy Resource Company (aka the Garbage Burner)
HPB - Home Plate Box
HRP - Home Run Porch
LC - Legends Club
LRT - Light Rail Transit
MBA - Minnesota Ballpark Authority (will own Target Field)
MOA - Mall of America
MSFC - Minnesota Sports Facilities Commission (owns the Metrodome)
NYS - New Yankee Stadium
SRO - Standing Room Only
STH - Season Ticket Holder
TCFBS - TCF Bank Stadium
TF - Target Field
Selected Bibliography - Analysis
First Edition (1992)
Second Edition (2006)
Selected Bibliography - Surveys
Second Edition (1987)
Not a "Third Edition" exactly,
but it replaced the above title
(2000, large coffee table)
Original edition (2000, round)
Revised edition (2006, round)
(2001, medium coffee table)
(2002, small coffee table)
(2003, medium coffee table)
(2004, very large coffee table)
(2006, very large coffee table)
Combines the previous two titles
(2007, medium coffee table)
Selected Bibliography - Nostalgia
Book and six ballpark miniatures