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Oh Say, Can You See?

November 18, 2009 2:27 PM

P8100222fenway.jpg

Fenway has posts. Target Field does not. But...

There's been a lively discussion over the past couple of days about the potential for obstructed views at Target Field, based on an image seen in a recent MPR photo essay.

This should come as no surprise to many who frequent this site, but has caught some people off-guard. For me, this was pretty old news since I've been working on the little chart seen below since I first heard about what happened in the Bronx this past spring.

Prior to that point, my assumption (without really thinking about it) had been that there couldn't possibly be any seats with obstructed views in a brand new modern baseball park. The designers are pros, and they learned how to avoid that decades ago, right?

But New Yankee Stadium contained so many seating gaffes that I began to wonder. Then it turns out there are some problems and complaints out in Queens as well (despite overall good reviews). And in Washington. And in St. Louis. Then I got this report from one of our ninjas:

HOK is still a little unsure about sightlines (in center field), meaning that home run fence below will be un-viewable from those bleachers.

Suddenly I got something of a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach.

So I sat down with the 3D seat locator for Target Field and began to work through every single section, looking for any types of obstructions. It took weeks to get through it all and then churn the data (and you wonder what I'm doing when I'm not posting regularly).

In short, there's good news and bad news.

Definitions

To their credit, the team acknowledges right on their seat selection site that there are some issues (though the good stuff is buried on a supporting page):

Restricted View Seats

* Because the Home Run Porch Terrace overhangs the left field wall, seats in those sections as well as the Home Run Porch View sections, are unable to view the left field wall.

* Because the Grandstand overhangs the right-center wall, seats in those sections are unable to view the right-center field wall.

* In Field Box section 101, the lower-numbered seats in rows 25-40 (closest to the right-field bleachers) only have a partial view of right field and center field. This is noted in the seat information that appears when you move your cursor over that seat for each affected seat.

* In the Main Level sections 107-126, rows 24 and above will only have a partial view of the main video board due to the fact they are beneath the club level overhang. Two 42" flat-screen televisions mounted above each of these sections will show the same images that appear on the main video board.

* In the Main Level sections 107-126, rows 16 and above are beneath the club level overhang.

* The Left-Field Bleacher sections 128-131 do not have a view of the main video board due to the Home Run Porch overhang.

These things are all accurate, but they tend to understate the situation just a bit. Still, given that the design of Target Field is certainly not going to change between now and opening day, the only option the team has is to set expectations properly and avoid surprises.

So, what constitutes an "obstruction"?

P9090073wrigley.jpg

Wrigley Field. Paradise? Not from these seats.

At its simplest, obstruction just means that you don't get to see what you want to see. We all know what that's like, right? It stinks.

Obviously, if you can't see third base (again, see NYS) that's an obstructed view. Likewise, if you have a pillar in front of you (or a railing, something I could not check with the seat locator), that's obstructed.

But what about the warning track and fences? What about the corners? What about the bullpens, scoreboard, even the sky?

I'll never forget buying what I thought were great seats at Wrigley only to discover when I got there that they were so far back under the second deck that I could see all of the grass, but absolutely none of the sky -- and not even the tiniest portion of the iconic scoreboard!

As a fan, I want at least to be able to see everything of significance which happens on the playing field. That means that I want to see into the corners, all of the fences, warning track, etc. I certainly want to be able to see the entire grass area of the field, and watch the ball from the moment it leaves the bat until it lands wherever.

Beyond that, I need to see all of the important stats. In the best case, I'd like to be able to see the main scoreboard. But if I happen to be on the wrong side of the park, something smaller can suffice. I'd also like to be able to see the bullpens and the on-deck area.

Given the unusual shape of a baseball field, and the relationship of the seats to the playing area, there are very great challenges in making this type of clear visibility possible from every seat in the ballpark. Frankly, I think it may be impossible.

But some trade-offs are better than others, and some problems have solutions if the designers look hard enough.

The challenges at Target Field are especially vexing because of the small footprint. If you discover, for example, that the outfield seats can't see large chunks of center field (sorry to say, but it's true), you can't just push them back. There's a parking ramp there.

Outfield seating is especially troublesome in all ballparks. It's quite common to find yourself in an outfield seat and not be able to see a play at the wall directly beneath you. The reason is that outfield seating has to be high enough to see all the way to the infield, which usually means a trade-off with the fence.

The Metrodome takes this to a comical extreme in right field, where the 30-foot baggie is topped by another 30 feet of folded up football seats, leaving something like a gigantic cliff which prevents any hope of seeing the right fielder and certainly results in one or more plays per game which are completely unviewable from up there. (Perversely, the Metrodome is also rare in that every single seat out in left field has a clear view of the left field fence.)

Methodology

Gathering the information for the image below was time-consuming but not very difficult. Turning it into something meaningful was a different story.

I quickly discovered that there are 14 areas of concern, though they are not all of equal concern. To account for the inequality, I gave each a value based on its importance. These are subjective, and I'll accept arguments that I got it wrong.

Here they are, with their point values (which add up to 100 for convenience):

seatview_008-A.jpg

From the best seat in the house (Section 8, Row A), the right field corner is blocked. (No one may care. Fine with me. People should know.)

1. Left field corner (2)
2. Left field wall and warning track (10)
3. Left field grass (7)
4. Left-center wall and track,
including bullpens (10)
5. Left-center grass (7)
6. Center field wall and track (10)
7. Center field grass (7)
8. Right-center wall and track (10)
9. Right-center grass (7)
10. Right field wall and track (10)
11. Right field grass (7)
12. Right field corner (2)
13. Sky (5)
14. Scoreboard (6)

You may wonder why grass is worth less than the wall/track in each area. That's because if you can't see the grass it's a sure thing that you can't see the wall. So the grass is a value above and beyond the corresponding wall/track.

Next, I came up with four levels of obstruction and gave each one a percentage value which determines how many of the available points are deducted from the total available.

- Completely obstructed (100%)
- Significant obstruction (70%)
- Partial obstruction (50%)
- Minor obstruction (20%)

So, for example, if the scoreboard is partially obstructed from a certain section, that section gets only 50% of the 6 points available, or 3 points for the scoreboard.

The best score possible would be 100. I'll tell you right now, not a single section got a perfect score (though I believe that some rows closest to the field, which cannot be tested on the seat locator, will have perfect scores).

All of this relies on the accuracy of the 3D seat selector. There's no way of knowing how close it is. For the purposes of this survey, I'm assuming it's pretty close to what people will actually experience. (On each trip to the park I've also personally checked some of the views, and they match very closely to the locator.)

The data is broken down by section according to how many views are available in the seat selector. Many sections have two or more views available (5 or 10 row chunks, for example). This helps in getting a little more refined.

Results

So here's the resulting diagram of best and worst sections for obstructed views. You can download my raw data in an Excel spreadsheet by clicking here.

Note that this is not an overall ranking of the quality of the seats. That would also have to take into account distance from the action, price, width of seat, and a bunch of other variables to which I do not yet have access.

obstructed.jpg

As you can see, the main grandstand is pretty good overall with just a couple of exceptions. The outfield, on the other hand, is a mess.

I debated somewhat whether I should even include the corners of the outfield. It's really quite rare to be able to see those, but interesting things seem to frequently happen there. It's where a double down the line goes to bounce, or where a long foul popup goes to be chased. So I left them in.

But I indicated on the chart (with black triangles) the reason why many seats cannot see down into those corners. Eliminate those seats and the corners will come into view for a very large number of sections.

That configuration of seats hugging the foul line is a throwback to the classic parks (it's present in Wrigley, Fenway, and a bunch of "retro" parks). As such, we almost have come to expect that wall along the foul line down by the foul pole.

But it wouldn't have to be that way, and wasn't for a while. Dodger Stadium and Camden Yards are good examples of how sight lines ruled in the era before everybody had to be like Fenway. I don't expect that the team will ever remove those seats, I just want to acknowledge that views into the corners are blocked by design.

In the outfield, it doesn't really matter where you sit, some part of the playing field will be completely out of view. Great catches at the wall directly beneath you? You probably won't see them (or the replay on the big screen either). A bigger worry is that you may miss action on the grass as well. Two players heading toward collision, a ball skipping under Denard Span's glove, Cuddyer winding up to throw someone out at third, these all may be out of your view.

Some Examples

Here are a few views captured from the seat locator. This is not an exhaustive collection, just a sampling of the things I saw and thought people might want to know about. In some cases, the locator doesn't give you exactly what you need, but it can be implied from where you can tell the front line of the deck will go.

seatview_101-27.jpg

Section 101, Row 27

seatview_101-34.jpg

Section 101, Row 34

seatview_117-WC.jpg

Section 117, Row WC (applies to all the back rows under the Legends Club seating)

seatview_125-1.jpg

Section 125, Row 1

seatview_139-8.jpg

Section 139, Row 8

seatview_A-WC.jpg

Section A, Row WC

seatview_237-15.jpg

Section 237, Row 15 (top of the Trap)

seatview_331-9.jpg

Section 331, Row 9

As I said earlier, many of these issues are the direct result of the small footprint of the ballpark. You live by the site, you die by the site. At the same time, HOK/Populous gets paid the big bucks to solve exactly these types of problems. If anyone is to be held responsible, it's them.

But I'm sure there have been plenty of sign-offs along the way. There may be no better solutions available in some areas. Then again, a few seasons of complaining could motivate the idea people to take a second look at the configuration out there. You never know.

Now that the concrete had been poured, it's up to the Twins to make sure that expectations are properly set. One of the ways to do that is with ticket prices. The best case is that no one arrives at the park without knowing what they will or won't be seeing. The worst case would be something like what happened in New York: the fans were pissed, the media had a field day, and the team had to start lowering ticket prices and issuing refunds. (Come to think of it, they did win the World Series. Maybe the whole thing bodes well for the 2010 Twins!)

It's also possible that none of this will matter. Out in the bleachers at Wrigley, people barely pay attention to the game at all. The views aren't obstructed, but if they were, nobody would probably care. Maybe that type of party atmosphere will pervade the outfield seating. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, I suppose. (But leave those damnable beach balls at home! You don't see those things at Wrigley.)

It's important for me to say that none of this sours me on the new ballpark in any way. It's going to be a great experience for lots of reasons. I already have some seats purchased in the outfield, even knowing what I was getting into. It's just that every time I hear somebody in the media say "there isn't a bad seat in the house" I get a little twitchy...

Perhaps you can understand why.

Thanks for your patience as I complete a redesign of the site which will appear in the next couple of days. The BallparkMagic store will be opening at that time with a bunch of things you may want to pass out as stocking stuffers or souvenirs.

Comments


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Wow, that is a lot of detail. Thanks Rick.

I didn't have time to read the entire thing now, but I do think with all of the home runs that will be landing in the RF bleachers there won't be much of a problem selling those tickets for $12 (if that's how much they are)

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 2:39 PM by hugh morris Highlight this comment 1

rick, awhile ago, you revealed two potential problems with the ballpark: 1) the freeway noise from under the plaza and 2) the evening sun's reflection off the mpls skyline. now you have added a third likely complaint of which we will hear much come next april and may: 3) the obstructed views. three major issues. and the local media missed each of them.

ok, now i'm pissed. especially after the way the twins have treated you with regard to the "aha" moments...

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 3:00 PM by yeahklye Highlight this comment 2

amazing...probably your most in-depth post ever! I will have to ponder this info a while when i've got time.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 3:05 PM by deenels Highlight this comment 3

when i chose my left field bleacher seats i knew i wasn't going to be able to see the scoreboard and i was fine by that. i am pleased to see in this unofficial ranking of views, they did score quite high.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 3:08 PM by annoyingcustomer Highlight this comment 4

Being a Portland native, AC, you'll always score highly.

Bravo, Rick. I like the ranking system. My season tix aren't going to be in the obstructed areas, and I think the Twins have done a nice job of letting fans "see" their vantage point before selecting the exact seat. My advice would be that anyone investing $ in tickets should look to see where their seat is and how their sightline will be.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 3:15 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 5

Any manager joined at the hip with Nick Punto doesn't desreve manager of the year.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 3:23 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 6

Love the title of this latest entry Rick!

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 3:28 PM by DeePee Highlight this comment 7

Interesting read. So far, while obstructions are present, from doing a check (inspired by your check), only Section 139 rows 8-14 seem totally unacceptable to sit in for me. I can live with missing plays at the fence if my overall view is good. Hopefully they'll put some TV's under the overhang in left field so that replays can be seen. My real question is if the seats are turned correctly down the lines.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 3:41 PM by autosave36 (aka Joe) Highlight this comment 8

Rick, thanks for taking the time to do this. Good stuff.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 4:29 PM by Lafferty Highlight this comment 9

Thank you Rick. I'll be sure to take a print out of this post when I go to TF to purchase tickets...or use it as a reference when purchasing tickets on your trading site.

On tha note = Any news on the trading site?

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 4:58 PM by luke Highlight this comment 10

I agree this will be a problem for some people...and perhaps the reflecting sun could pose a problem for those fans on the 3rd base side...

But I do not think the "noise" from 394 will matter. I actually welcome it. Dare I say, the freeway will make sounds I associate with being OUTSIDE! And I truly hope I don't hear one person complain about the noises coming from those big silver birds flying overhead!

(People should be making enough noise at the game that any exterior noise is null, anyway)

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 5:27 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 11

Rick, you are one in a million. I can't imagine how much time you devoted to this analysis. As with everyone else, I pretty happy with my seats this year, but I will definitely be walking the park all season checking out my options for 2011. This is a great starting out point. As you mentioned, price and distance from the infield also play a large part in the value of the seat.

Thanks again, and keep up the great work.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 5:30 PM by minn55441 Highlight this comment 12

I would like to point out that the speed limit for 394 though that area of downtown is marked 45 MPH. That decreases the traffic noise.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 5:32 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 13

In addition to what DreDogg said, hopefully they let the trains sound their horns when they go by. That'd really be welcome too.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 5:50 PM by autosave36 (aka Joe) Highlight this comment 14

Pardon me everybody but I think I missed the boat on something. For a while now there has been a third row of field canopy lights just below the lights that are actually in the canopy. They seem pretty bright. Are these lights needed to help meet the mlb requirements or are they to help illuminate the canopy to look cool or what? Does anyone know-I'm just curious I guess. Thanks.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 6:11 PM by Tom D. Highlight this comment 15

Tom, I was just thinking the same thing when I looked at the webcam. This is just speculation, but I think those lights below the canopy will not be on during the entire course of the game, but they might flash when the Twins hit a home run. Otherwise it will be really bright for those sitting in the last rows of the upper deck. They do look cool though. Can anyone confirm?

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 6:19 PM by Lafferty Highlight this comment 16

Nice work. Now you can get started on that overall rating system you alluded to.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 6:47 PM by robin Highlight this comment 17

Well, I'm the third person that's curious about that extra row of lights.
Stupid question, but do they face inward towards the field, or are they facing outward towards the street and the HERC plant? I can't quite tell.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 6:56 PM by luke Highlight this comment 18

Rick -

Amazing work. As someone has already mentioned, I can't imagine the work that went into do this. We all should be very thankful for the effort you put into this website, so Twins geeks like me can read about information like this.

I do think everyone does need to take a step back and be thankful for the new ballpark (not saying people aren't, but the negative sure has been showing for a few days now). I can understand frustration, but you have to look at the glass half (or in this case 98% full) instead of half empty. We have a NEW outdoor stadium for goodness sake. Of which, maybe a handful of poster on this site have been to and toured. We haven't seen exactly what areas are bad, what percentage of seats have "major" obstuctions, or what the cost of those seats will be. I for one wish these obstructions wouldn't have happened and that HOK, the Twins or both would have done something about it, but we really don't know the how/why they did it this way. I have to believe that someone from the project HOK or the Twins would have mentioned it to someone along the way and this was the best of what they could do. Maybe I'm wrong. Just my .02

Tyler

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 7:09 PM by TylerBauman Highlight this comment 19

Great work once again Rick...your hard work is very much appreciated!!

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 7:17 PM by JCE Highlight this comment 20

Who Cares? TARGET FIELD WILL BE BETTER THAN THE DOME, Right?

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 7:31 PM by Michael Highlight this comment 21

Michael, I completely agree with you. I understand some of the concerns over obstructed views, especially when stating that "there is not a bad seat in the house", however, this is outdoor baseball, and what really is better than that? I went to the Ballpark in Arlington (not sure what they call it now, but I'm calling it that forever) and we sat in right field in the lower deck about 22 rows up, underneath the porch in right. To be honest with you what I couldn't see was the last thing on my mind, what I could see was fresh cut green grass, sunlight, shadows, sunglasses, and best of all baseball. There were plays that we could not see, and form where we were absolutely no replays to be viewed. I just looked at it as it's one game, I miss a hell of a lot more watching at home, and I will come back with new seats, and a new experience. Many will bitch, and to me that's fine, don't go, more tickets for those that want to be under the sun, rain, and snow of Minnesota.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 8:59 PM by Josh Highlight this comment 22

Luke, Tom, Lafferty,
The lights, as I have seen them, are on the top of the fencing behind the last row of upper deck seats. The fencing is located on a vertical line (not directly under the center of the canopy but close) on the outer side of the canopy and the lights point up at the underside of the canopy which is curved. So the lights therefore are aimed at the portion of the curve that is towards the outside of the stadium. Although they are bright enough and have enough ambient light to illuminate the entire underside pretty well. I have some pictures of them somewhere that i will post. Sorry if this is confusing.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 9:08 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 23

Sorry for the double post. Here and here are the best examples I have. I thought i had my good camera with me the night i took the second one but apparently not.

I guess they arent as far back as i thought (more directly under the canopy). but they do light the underside of the canopy from lights mounted on the fence behind the last rows of seats. Considering they are an accent feature to highlight the canopy, i can't imagine they wouldn't be on during game night. But i could see how brightness reflecting off the canopy creates extra sight issues on field. If they were turning off canopy lights in other stadiums during playoffs, i can see them leaving these off as well. Its a toss up.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 9:22 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 24

Well said Josh. I'll be glad to just be outside watching baseball. I'll let everyone else do the crying and point out any flaws they see in the ballpark. Obstructions or not I'll be at many games. I appreciate the hard work put into this site as I come on here daily for updates or links peaple post, but it's funny how the excitement turned into being worried and angry. That 3D seat viewer has been posted on the Twins site for a long time and somehow people are just starting to notice the obstructions.

Posted on November 18, 2009 at 10:12 PM by MB Highlight this comment 25

Maybe they'll consider moving the bullpens somewhere else and adding more bleacher seats there since the left field bleachers seem to have the best view in the outfield.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 01:01 AM by Jonathan Highlight this comment 26

Rick, a great post. I must admit, being in section 318, row 4, it is nice to see my seats are virtually unobstructed. All the same, I keep enough scorecards to know that some of the views you point out as obstructed are in fact obstructed, but are not going to come into play very much, maybe a play or two in a game. The vast number of Twins fans attending the game will not make a big deal out of a play or two. I simply do not see it happening. The biggest complaints would come from those few sections in the outfield that are true problem areas, and if the Twins price them accordingly, they should be OK. As you said, they'll probably be a party atmosphere out there anyway... college kids and the like. I think that your work is tremendously useful for anyone that really wants a good idea what he/she is getting into, but I think that for the average fan, virtually all of the grandstand will be a tremendous experience, while the outfield will be a great experience for those that realize what it means to sit in the outfield.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 07:13 AM by jpberka Highlight this comment 27

wait a minute: i'm supposed to overlook the fact that ALL of the outfield seating will have a portion of the field obstructed? this means that at tf there are more seats w/ obstructed views than in the metrodome. don't give me that "be thankful for an outdoor stadium" crap. all we heard leading up to this point is "great sight lines! small amt of foul territory! no bad seats in the house!" rick is right: when the shine of the new park wears off, this will be what people complain about.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 07:32 AM by yeahklye Highlight this comment 28

if you are sitting in the outfield and a play happens at the wall in front of you, chances are you will not be able to see it. in game 163 cabrera's double was a mystery to us until we heard cheering. we had no idea what happened (we were about 20 rows up in the hr porch directly behind the play)

i give the outfield seats a pass in this regard (because geometry will not allow it to happen)

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 07:54 AM by annoyingcustomer Highlight this comment 29

I will say that when I was a student, I spent many nights in the Dome's outfield upper deck because it was damn cheap and I was just glad to go to the game. I missed lots of right field catches because I wanted to be as close to the action as I could for my $4. If the highly obstructed view seats fill this purpose, then I'm ok with it.

I don't know that I've seen the single game prices yet, but the season ticket price chart suggests that the right field bleachers will be single game only, and are likely the cheapest seats in the park. Though I still don't think they had to be made as obstructed as the are, I can see the Twins holding these back for walk-up sales, college nights, and so on.

If you were down in the warehouse district and saw the TF lights come on, and wanted to spontaneously go see the game on the cheap, I think these would be an acceptable choice in the $6-$8 price range. You can walk right off the plaza and be in your seats in a minute.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 08:34 AM by Linc Highlight this comment 30

Awesome post, Rick! I think the Twins deserve some credit for making it easy for the ticket buyer to check for obstructions. It's too bad they opted for a few extra seats down the foul lines that block the view for everyone behind them.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 09:40 AM by Dave T Highlight this comment 31

At first I was TO'd to see the lower club rated with some obstruction, but then I realized in the lower club of the dome you'd miss the 3rd baseman catching a foul ball in front of the dugout and just say "oh well" and go back to watching baseball.

I think with the lack of change in construction, and relatively little to talk about, we've exhausted our positives and our focusing on something new. I'm not dismissing the concern, and potential surprise on some people's parts, but I think this will be a fairly mild event for the masses.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 10:24 AM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 32

I would just like to point out that apart from those RF bleacher seats against the "overlook", I actually really want to sit over there. I think those seats closer to the foul pole could be a really fun place to watch the game. You are right next to the plaza, have a good view of the rest of the field.

Everyone keeps talking about how the RF bleachers need to be raised up. The real problem is the pitch, or angle of the seats. There needs to be fewer rows, and have the angle match up with the "overlook". I feel like its something that could be corrected, but that is without seeing the blue prints.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM by Brandon T Highlight this comment 33

LF bleechers baby! best seat in the house for the money i dont need to see that stinkin scoreboard.. when i was in KC the last few times i was in a trance staring at that huge thing( scoreboard) thinking of how i could hook my 360 up to it and play modern warfare or somthing... its a distration.. a good distraction but a distraction none the less if you are used to the dome jumbo tron...

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 11:11 AM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 34

It's been a while since I last posted. I've just been enjoying Rick's posts along with the periodic meltdowns and such.

But I just have to say that I love how some of you have already relegated the LF upperdeck sections to one of the following categories:

A) A massive failure and collosal disappointment so glaring that without even setting set foot in the park it's easy to see that TF is "just another ballpark".

B) The spot where if we're lucky all the drunks will hang out because, let's face it, those seats will be so bad that the only way a person can enjoy a game from there is if they're hammered.

Hahaha! I love this site.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 12:57 PM by Margaret Thatcher Highlight this comment 35

The LF seats in the top rows of the upper deck won't be bad if you don't mind not seeing what happens from 15 feet in front of the wall back to the fence. I, however, think that blows.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 1:02 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 36

Thanks for the great post Rick! If not for all the stuff on this site, I wonder just how much would get swept under the rug? I just hope those in charge take heed!

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 1:30 PM by Tommy Highlight this comment 37

AS AN ARCHETECT I WORRY ABOUT STUFF LIKE THAT. IM GLAD SOMEONE ELSE RELIZED THAT

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 3:02 PM by TJ Highlight this comment 38

WOW !! It has really gotten dark around this website.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 3:30 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 39

I'm still happy!

What am I supposed to do? Overlook big ballpark stories that need to be told? That would make me, um, the mainstream media...

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 3:45 PM by Rick 40

If we just played in an open field like Field of Dreams, wouldn't we still have obstructed views? (at least to all those people who weren't lucky enough to stand in the front row) :)

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 4:13 PM by common man Highlight this comment 41

common man,

Yup. My feeling is - despite these capably-demonstrated obstructions, once the gates at TF open, "people will come, Rick. People will most definitely come."

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 4:20 PM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 42

rick - it seems that you might need to get that new vikings stadium website up sooner than we thought.

looks like those bumbling bureaucrats (who are only trying to save their own pointless and unnecessary posts on a pointless and unnecessary commission) over at the metropolitan sports facilities commission (msfc) are finding way after way to screw up the progress the vikings have been making with legislative leaders. while at the same time completely pissing off vikings ownership & mgmt.

msfc is filled with a bunch of self-serving fools who claim to be looking out for the state. i call b.s. they are just trying to keep their unnecessary commission afloat so they don't have to go and find real jobs.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 4:25 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 43

no offense rick, because i love what you do here, but i think you (and some others) are making the whole "obstructed seat" angle into a "bigger story" than it really is OR ever will be.

i get the "spirit" of what you are trying to convey, but again i just don't think it is as "big" as some here are making it out to be.

just my two cents!

peace....

;-)

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 4:30 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 44

Boof Bonser is going to obstruct my view of the batter, catcher, umpire, and most of foul territory behind home plate from my centerfield seats... I want my money back.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 5:35 PM by New Era Highlight this comment 45

Whats up with the red lights on web cam #1 @ 5:45. The whole park has a red tone

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 5:55 PM by hans Highlight this comment 46

Rick, I wasn't specifically aiming my comment at you. I can appreciate the time and effort you put into this story. It is very informative and can help many people decide on seating choices, nothing wrong with that at all. It's the prevailing steaming anger that followed that seems a bit over the top. People are entitled to their opinion of course, this is just mine.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 6:07 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 47

i was wondering that myself hans. actually, they have a christmas like thing going on. webcam 1 has the red tint, webcam 2 has the green tint. i know we've discussed it before, but i forgot what it was all about.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 6:28 PM by luke Highlight this comment 48

That's a trip.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 6:30 PM by Lafferty Highlight this comment 49

Here's the deal - being at the ballpark isn't as good a view as sitting in front of your TV at home (great views/every angle, multiple replays, etc.), so what you gonna do? Give up your season tickets, or keep going to the game? That's where we're at as a society. Either live with the imperfect views (but better game exerience), or stay home for the better views (but worse game experience)...

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 6:48 PM by Goober Highlight this comment 50

*gasp* such blasphemy, New Era!!

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 7:46 PM by Jax Highlight this comment 51

yeah what is with the colors??

I just saw all green on cam 2 like the mothership had landed in CF but our view was obstructed!!

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 7:50 PM by Jax Highlight this comment 52

Betaband (and others),

MPR's Bob Collins linked to the story this morning, and happily quoted the part where I talked about how it may not matter at all.

For what it's worth, I'm with you. Most people won't notice or care. Surprise is the enemy. We just need to get any gnashing of teeth out of the way now so it doesn't blow away our new ballpark smell in April...

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 8:13 PM by Rick 53

Good news for a 2014 All-Star game in Minneapolis?

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 8:19 PM by downfall Highlight this comment 54

congrats on the plug rick! you deserve it considering all of the great work you put into this site for our enjoyment.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 8:28 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 55

well it certainly gives us something to talk about but to quote Lillith Sternin-Crane: "Fraiser, Once again your anticipation is interfering with my enjoyment." (what in life cannot be summed up with a Cheers quote??)

I guess I want rose-colored glasses right now so the details can be a little bit of a buzz-kill :) BUT I understand why it's important for people who have yet to buy seats to be aware of these potential issues too.

So in the final analysis, I guess I just wanted to use the quote.

p.s. Target Field is now awash in a Smurfy blue.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 8:30 PM by Jax Highlight this comment 56

Just to be clear...I don't mind modestly obstructed views when the site or simple geometry dictate it must be so. I would rather have some cheap seats available in the outfield with slightly problematic views than no seats at all.

I only am complaining about obstructed view seats that, in my very amateurish opinion, did not have to be designed that way. That said, given the choice between view problems at Target Field and view problems at the Metrodome, well that is an easy choice isn't it? I believe it will be a place of much joy for many years to come.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 8:58 PM by Linc Highlight this comment 57

I wonder if I get some technical assistance? On one of my computers, when I pull up the main TF web cam page, the small pictures that indicate the 2 web cam options appear current. Then when I choose one of the cams, it won't let me choose images more recent than about 4-5 days ago (right now the most recent image I can get on both options is 11:45PM on Nov 15). Any ideas? Thanks!

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 9:34 PM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 58

The "mothership" is just the away scoreboard, I would imagine that the big scoreboard is on too.

Posted on November 19, 2009 at 10:17 PM by Brandon T Highlight this comment 59

Ok, the conflict over the sightlines have certainly reached their apex over the last couple of weeks. I would like to know what Major League Ballparks currently used have the best and worst sightlines? Right now I am of the opinion that all ballparks have areas with obstructed views, but the positives Target Field brings still catapults it to the of the list of best ballparks. I would like to know which ballparks have done the best job creating no visual obstructions whose techniques we should have better modeled after.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 12:48 AM by HebrewHammer16 Highlight this comment 60

Worst sightlines? Maybe Toronto. That place is so cavernous. It's possible that, even though PNC is a very nice park and very cozy ballpark (meaning small), being that it's just the two-level thing (a la Milwaukee County Stadium), there's posts holding up the upper seating bowl. So, those probably get in people's way, especially in the back rows. Fenway is the same way, so if you're sitting way back under that awning, you have that, and posts to contend with.

Best sightlines? No idea. Maybe Angels Stadium? Maybe Dodger Stadium...

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 07:09 AM by luke Highlight this comment 61

The point is this: Don't charge the same for obstructed view seats as unobstructed seats.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 07:14 AM by Tommy Highlight this comment 62

Seems to me the sightlines many complained about (for good reason) in the Dome were related to the orientation of the seats in relation to the infield. It was not about pockets of the outfield that were out of view.

From what I can tell, most if not all seats have a very clear view of the infield especially along the baselines and in the corners. I think that is where fans will see a vast improvement over the Dome, and what they will care about the most. I think it is important to make sure people know what they are buying, but I don't think it will dissuade many people from buying seats in those areas. Ultimately they will be outside enjoying the game.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 08:07 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 63

Last night at the park they were messing with different tints of lights going on and off on the canopy. Blue, Green, Red, etc. Looked like the top of the Target building downtown.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 09:22 AM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 64

OG - Do you think that might be another "a-ha"? During the night it will glow different colors? Would that distract area residents? (Are there any area residents?)

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 09:44 AM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 65

NEW TOPIC

Something very exciting is about to happen and all we are talking about is the sight lines. News Flash: The final seats could be installed by the end of the day!

One thing I have been paying close attention to in the construction of TF is the seating bowl the 'touches' the field. This is one area where I think TF has done outstanding.

Bad examples of field edges are Oakland, where there is a massive stair case in the left field corner. LA Angeles, while having a beautiful stadium, really missed an opportunity behind the plate. They have awkward windows and poor branding. This is important especially because that is what TV viewers see the most.

The twins on the other hand, have Limestone behind the plate, the dugouts and the overlook. Both bullpens are in the same place, so as not to waste more fence area. Center field is tidy with trees and the TF logo. I also like the symmetry of the left and right field lines. The seats in left and right field are right up against the fence with flowers. There are no gaps between the left and right field lines and the rest of the stadium.

I think our field level bowl is the most attractive and unique in the league now. Many teams miss this point and spread out their bullpens, have garage doors (or garbage bags) scattered across the field level. My hope is that we don't ruin this with too much advertising. I also hope that they take the classy route and make all of the ads white against the green wall.

Target field is now one of the most aesthetically pleasing parks in the nation. YES, there are a few sight line issues, but we are truly blessed to have such a beautiful park to call our own.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 10:49 AM by Brandon T Highlight this comment 66

Yeah, Brandon. And the Titanic was the mother of all luxury liners. Just as we're asked to temper our concerns about sightlines, maybe you and the rest of the "Target Field = Temple of Artemis" crowd could tone down the TF circle jerk mentality.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 11:12 AM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 67

No where in my post did I say the sight lines weren't a big deal. They are. I think we have exhausted that discussion. I am drawing attention to something I think Target Field did quite well.

But thank you for your well thought-out and articulated post.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM by Brandon T Highlight this comment 68

about the all-star game: why not just flip the rotation of the all-star game between leagues. Let the cubs host the 2014 for the 100th year of wrigley and give it to the twins in 2015 (1965, 1985). its that simple. everyone wins.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 11:31 AM by pawelk Highlight this comment 69

Sid is such somethin' else. Senile is an understatement.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 11:41 AM by DeePee Highlight this comment 70

come on brandon, we're not allowed to "drink the twins kool-aid". you havn't been paying attention lately. the site police will correct you if you fall out of line.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 11:44 AM by tim Highlight this comment 71

can't remember if this video was posted or not, but im sure most of you have seen it. couple things: kevin smith said that the out-of-town scoreboard can play videos, so wouldn't they show the replays on that board for those who can't see the main scoreboard i.e. the people sitting in left or under the club level overhang? also, whats with the twins logo on the left field wall, seems a little random or is there something more thats going to be added?

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 11:45 AM by pawelk Highlight this comment 72

You said it, Deepee. Sid's loosin' it.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 1:57 PM by DuluthTim Highlight this comment 73

I sure love that headline in the Strib right now...For now, Twins say pitching needs can be met from within.....Pass the kool aid.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 2:55 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 74

Sid "lost it" about 15 years ago. Most sports columnists are irrelevent. However, he is correct in stating that MSFC are the dumbest group of jerks assembled of all time.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 3:00 PM by Jim Highlight this comment 75

Wow. He reminds me of the grandpa who just keeps everyone on the edge of their seats, just waiting for the next incredibly inappropriate, rude, prejudiced, or jackassed thing he's going to say.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 3:09 PM by theloniousjoe Highlight this comment 76

I guess I don't get all the backlash against the MSFC. They're just looking for answers. It seems like many fans think they can somehow just wave a wand and create a new stadium for the Vikings when that can't be further from the truth.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 3:53 PM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 77

Buffalo,

I agree. Why are the Vikings acting with such vitriol toward this proposal? Is it that they feel like it's being shoved down their throats? Is it that it seems too reasonable, and thus lets the Legislature off the hook for a new stadium?

Or is it just to make things easier when they start loading up the moving vans?

I really don't get it.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 4:15 PM by Rick 78

Please refresh my memory --- wasn't Sid the Numero Uno Shill when people first started talking about a domed stadium? Isn't there like four or five different Sids, none of whom are to be taken seriously or trusted?

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 4:23 PM by Ben Highlight this comment 79

Wow, That Sid interview was something else. What an old bitchy prick he is.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 5:24 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 80

Rick - another terrific piece. You pretty much confirmed my thoughts behind why certain areas were not available as season tickets. I also believe the ares in Home Plate Box sections more than 3-4 rows under the overhang (e.g. rows 20 and above) will have worse views than your estimates. You rate most under the overhang as roughly the same - from sitting in other parks with similar designs, I can tell you that they aren't. I believe the folks with HPB seats in rows 19 and up will be among the most disappointed, since they won't be expecting ANY obstruction.

Shameless plug: if you want a 20 game plan C season ticket package for cost ($29x2 each) in Field Box 126, row 22, aisle (ROV rating 83) or 20 game plan E in Home Plate View 318, row 7 (ROV rating 98), send me an email to: jfh 3 co AT gmail DOT COM (written properly, no spaces).

ROV = Rick's Obstructed View rating.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 7:24 PM by jfh Highlight this comment 81

You got it, Ben. Sid is a big reason why Memorial Stadium and the Met no longer stand. Although both would have needed some work to continue being used, Sid sucks.

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 8:51 PM by JohnC Highlight this comment 82

Well, yes, but a world without Sid in the 1950s might have led to a world without the Twins or Vikings. He reportedly was an early advocate.

Still, that clip does make you think that his best years are likely behind him...

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 9:04 PM by Rick 83

my god sid, can you be anymore an ass?!

Posted on November 20, 2009 at 10:16 PM by The Sooj Highlight this comment 84

i am saying this as a vikings fan, a minnesota resident and as someone who is more than willing to pay more in taxes or fees to help in building a new vikings stadium in downtown minneapolis.

yes, sid may not have been extremely eloquent in his response (give the poor guy a break.....he is almost 90 years old!) about the metropolitan sports facilities commission, but what he is intimating IS correct: the metropolitan sports facilities commission and its cadre of activist members (here is looking at you finance committee chair, paul thatcher) are in fact "dummies". they seem to have about as much political savvy as a rock and are completely alienating their lone remaining tenant in the vikings.

real smart move msfc.....nothing but another bunch of politically appointed idiots who don't know their face from their ass!

if the msfc, the mn legislature and gov. pawlenty do not work with the vikings very soon to come up with a public/private stadium solution and the vikings come to the financial reality (driven by an extremely revenue poor metrodome), well then i can think of a few politicians who will not be getting my vote next election cycle.

and to any smart-ass, vikings hating, packers fans who read rick’s blog i will just say this in advance: piss off butt packer fans! the only reason that cow town even still has a team is because your unique and no longer allowed public-ownership structure was grandfathered in by the nfl, so i don't want to hear any b.s. from the likes of you. ;-)

let's save the vikes! it is time to build a new stadium in minneapolis!

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 12:48 AM by Betaband Highlight this comment 85

What do Packer fans have to do with the Vikings not getting a new stadium?

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 01:52 AM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 86

Huh. That was a really weird penultimate paragraph, Betaband. I'm left wondering if its jealousy, immaturity, or hypercompetitiveness (or all three?) that leads someone to gin up such a randomly combative statement and then point it at a group of people that have nothing to do with your point (which is valid).

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 07:53 AM by Vince Highlight this comment 87

Well, I'd like to echo Brandon's comments on the field interior. If they don't clog it up with bad advertising signs, it could really be a beauty.

I wondering if the limestone along the backstop is irregular enough that a wild pitch going back there might take some crazy bounces. I think that would be a neat little home field quirk that wouldn't come into play too often, and isn't a prominent gimmick, but is just enough to talk about a couple times a season.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 08:39 AM by Linc Highlight this comment 88

Winona - Packer fans are responsible for the Vikings not getting a stadium for the following reason:
Several years ago, the Green Bay Packers did quite a number on Lambeau Field. They closed the horseshoe, they added luxury boxes, they put in a different scoreboard...albeit not a very cool one, they added a brick-facade atrium on the outside of the place and some other small enhancements.
They did this without having to ask stock-holding public for a new stadium. Yes, they renovated Lambeau Field. So, by the Packers doing that, they sent a message to The Purple by saying, "fellas, you can renovate your existing stadium, and still have a pretty nice place. you don't need to build new, you can just renovate the one you got."

The Minnesota Legislature got word of this and decided to agree with the Green and Gold, and ever since they did that, they haven't set aside a plugged dime for a new stadium for the Vikings.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 09:37 AM by luke Highlight this comment 89

One has nothing to do with the other. You know that.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 10:36 AM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 90

I suppose a $6 billion dollar deficit had nothing to do with?

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 10:38 AM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 91

Luke, you've got to be kidding me. And Betaband, seek some anger management counseling. You've got some issues.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 10:49 AM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 92

In interest of full disclosure, I'm a Packers fan. But I still want the Vikings to stay in Minnesota because it wouldn't be half as fun without the rivalry. But the way the Wilfs have gone about this, acting as if the state and its residents are just awash in money like themselves is wrong.

They need to have more realization of what the average citizen is going through right now and how bad the state budget is, especially thanks to Pawlenty's love of "fixing it" by pushing things off year after year so he doesn't have to actually deal with it.

That being said, if the Vikings were willing to take what say the Guthrie got from the state ($25 million out of $125 million, or 1/5th of the cost from the state) or even the Twins (the team covered roughly 40 percent of the cost of Target Field) I would muster up some support for it if the tax is done statewide or uses taxes on hotels and rental cars, etc. But when the Vikings expect to be able to just pitch in $250 million toward a $1 billion project, it's a nonstarter, especially since they are already making money and the team has seen its value jump $235 million since Wilf bought it only six years ago.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 10:53 AM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 93

That should have read, "Nothing to do with it."
But I'f we're going to blame Wisconsonites for the notion that a remodeled Metrodome is the pragmatic answer because they remodeled Lambeau Field, we're simply pushing off the reponsibility we bear for the Viking's current stadium dilema. If we carry your logic further, Luke, we should be giving Brewers fans credit for lighting a fire under the butts of the Minnesota and Hennepin County muckity-mucks who finally did something about the Twins' stadium issue.
The Vikings have long been responsible for their own stadium problems because for many years they have behaved arrogantly and have acted as if they are entitled to a new, publicly financed stadium simply because they are the Vikings.
Minnesotans can share in the blame becaue we all walk around assuming we're smarter than everybody else. We're the brainpower state, after all. We built a sensibly priced Metrodome that was finishhed ahead of schedule and under budget. What other community can say that? Never mind the place was an obsolete, white elephant the day the doors were opened. We Built on the cheap and we're paying the consequences. We laughed at Kansas City for building rediculously expensive separate stadiums for their teams, but only until very recently have those facilities begged for upgrading or replacement. The Metrodome has been inadequate every year it's been open.
As far as the Packers ownership structure is concerned, I think it's too bad that baseball and the NFL won't allow public ownership of teams. It's a smart way to do it. Are Packer fans worried that their team will bolt for California?

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 11:01 AM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 94

Luke,

We might just be arguing semantics, but the Packers didn't really send a message to the Vikings or anyone else. True, the NFL took note because of how well the renovation was done. But Lambeau was renovated out of necessity. The options in Green Bay were basically to either renovate or lose the team. Trust me that building new wasn't really ever a viable option. The team most likely would have left town at some point down the line if the referrendum had failed.

Another thing to note is that the Packers approached the subject in unique way. I remember Bob Harlan (team president) along with almost every other team and front office official (including players and Packer alumni) going door to door throughout GB talking with folks about the impact of the project. Then it was put to a referrendum, which narrowly passed. In a county with the socioeconomics and size of Brown, $295 mil and a .5% sales tax is a HUGE deal. But the vote passed in large part because of the honest, straightforward, and grassroots approach of the team.

I'm not all that well versed in the Vikings stadium issues. But it seems to me that there is very little community outreach but a lot of bickering at the capital and through the media. I hope you guys get a new stadium (you gotta love the rivalry!). I just don't think that the team is going about it the right way. The Packers were dangerously close to folding in the 90s and it would have happened if not for the stock sale/renovation, so actually we were very concerned about the team bolting at one point... just not for the same reason that Viking fans should be concnerned.

Maybe what worked in GB won't work here because of the big difference in the size/pop. of the two places. I don't know. I just wanted to mention those things because the whole situation interests me.

Go Pack!

(I know it's heresy, but I'm both a diehard Twins fan and a diehard Packer fan... but my reasons for the dual aliance are very valid :)

You da man, Buffalo!

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 11:11 AM by Vince Highlight this comment 95

luke,

That's only half the story. The individual stockholders of the Packers weren't asked to build a new stadium because the residents of Brown county passed a referendum in 2000 which raised a half-cent sales tax to renovate Lambeau Field. That's the precendent that Wisconsin has set for Minnesota. The Packers didn't renovate Lambeau Field, the taxpayers did!

As far as Betaband's rant, I'm sure it had more to do with comments on the Strib articles by Packer fans. Many of them so jealous of Brett Favre that they would love to get revenge on Vikings fans by having them lose their team to Los Angeles.

It will be difficult for the Vikings. T-Paw is more concerned with what will ultimately be a failed attempt to become president. T-Paw has never been a friend to any stadium seekers. When he was in the MN Legislature, he was a loud voice - along with Phil Krinkie - against the Twins getting a ballpark 10 years ago when it would have been built in a nicer location (where the new Guthrie currently stands) for less money.

And I'll tell you one more thing, if hell freezes over and by some fluke John Marty ends up as governor, you can kiss the Vikings GOODBYE! click my name for a recent podcast from ESPN Los Angeles talking NFL in LA, they're talking 2011...Gee, which team's lease is up in 2011????? It seems that Jacksonville is the most likely to move to LA, however, this stadium is being built for TWO TEAMS due to the huge market that is LA/OC/Inland Empire. Even if some other team goes there, the Vikings could still move there.

It's going to be an interesting year indeed.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 11:21 AM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 96

Last night I was watching "The Late, Late Show with Craig Ferguson", which is taped in LA. During his monologue, he told some joke about the Oakland Raiders. He then mentioned the fact that LA doesn't have an NFL team. He followed up that statement by saying that the Minnesota Vikings might move to LA. Of course I'm not implying he has inside info, just pointing out that the buzz about the Vikings moving to LA may be getting louder there.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 12:30 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 97

this is unrelated to current discussions, but, is it just me, OR IS THE GOPHERS OFFENSE ABOUT AS POWERFUL AS NICK PUNTO?
Also, when is the plaza going to be open to the public (I'd assume before TF has its 1st game)

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 1:59 PM by deenels Highlight this comment 98

I will admit, Vince and all the rest, that yes, my post was mostly sardonic wit, but I think there was a little merit to it (BTW, I know the Bears renovated too, but for a wad). How can the Pack do it, and we can't?
Wasn't there a grassroots push by a group around these parts to finally get TF built?
The legislative session starts late this year I believe, and the Super Bowl will happen before the politicos get together in Saint Paul. I wonder how much easier for the Vikings it'll get if the Purple wins the Lombardi trophy?

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 2:10 PM by luke Highlight this comment 99

meanwhile, how bout our new ballpark eh? isn't it magic? :)

Anyone else here think the MLB Network is going to be your saving grace this winter?

Jacquie

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 4:19 PM by Jax Highlight this comment 100

I understand Betaband's rant, being a frustrated Vikings fan myself. We are frustrated by the lack of progress and that opponents say the Vikings are making millions (an odd statement from people who have never had a look at the team's books). There are solutions for getting this done. My favorite involves a casino downtown. Yes, yes, we've heard this before. But I think the key is getting the 3 tribes with regional casinos involved. Maybe they can run it. It wouldn't really compete with them, because it wouldn't have a hotel or live entertainment - just slots, table games, and a top notch sports bar (no sports gambling). After expenses, give each tribe a 15% cut of the profits. The remaining 55% goes to the MSFC to pay for the new stadium. Maybe after 5 years, if they get ahead on paying the bonds back, they could divert 15% of the Vikings portion to the general fund for other state needs. Seems to me like a decent way to build a state of the art facility without taxing anyone who doesn't willingly go down there to gamble. I've already sent this idea to a couple lawmakers. What are your thoughts? (and sorry Rick for talking about the Vikings, instead of the Twins)

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 6:13 PM by TC 34 Highlight this comment 101

YES....MLB Network has been my fav channel since it started up..Comes with the TV package and 24/7 MLB baseball..And yes the ballpark will be "magic"..I was fortunate enough to have a tour a month ago and got to sit in my seats and take a photos..Needless to say I have the BEST dam wallpaper to get me through the Winter a guy could have....Great job on the site Rick :):):)

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 6:17 PM by Steve Highlight this comment 102

TC 34, I don't need a look at their books. Forbes does a report each and every year on the teams' values and finances. And you can bet that what they get is a conservative estimate.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 7:10 PM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 103

For those of you complaining about the Packers getting their stadium dollars, there's a simple solution. Just put the Vikings stadium to a referendum vote and see what happens. I guarantee you it gets struck down though.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 7:12 PM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 104

TC34 for Governor!

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 8:04 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 105

You know, I was re-examining Rick's speculative draft of the obstructed view seats at TF. The ones he deemed as being the "most obstructed", with the exception of the upper reaches of the USBHRP, those will have a grand view of the huge scoreboard.

It's a little bit like fans way up in the upper reaches at Cowboys Stadium. Sure, the players look like ants, but who cares when you have that big-ass video board in front of you? Its going to be even more special next February when the NBA all star game is at Jerry Jones' House of Worship.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 8:13 PM by luke Highlight this comment 106

The video boards will be larger than the court. Incredible.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 10:16 PM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 107

hey buffalo - no one really cares to hear the opinons of a cheese-dick fan in regards to the vikings and/or their stadium situation! just playin'.....kind of. okay, not really. ;-)

p.s. those forbes valuations have been proven incorrect numerous times over the years. the vikings are NOT making any money playing in the metrodome or a remodeled metrodome. it is as simple as that. we either build a new stadium in dt minneapolis or the vikings will unfortunately be out of here. that would be horrible.

Posted on November 21, 2009 at 11:16 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 108

Stay classy Betaband. You've managed to change my mind. With fans like you, I hope the Vikings are playing in LA after 2011.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 12:40 AM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 109

Buffalo- I've been meaning to ask you... Do you like guacamole?

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 03:34 AM by new era Highlight this comment 110

Nice site you have here Rick ... or at least it used to be.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 03:47 AM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 111

Beta -- I would say the Vikings are not making as much money as other NFL teams, or the Vikings are not making as much money as they could in a new stadium. However, I think it is safe to say given their collective bargaining agreement, how the owners get to treat "contracts" with the players, and the TV contracts, that all NFL teams are making money (or are able to by staying well below the salary cap a la Jacksonville).

However, next year if the salary cap does come off, then it will get interesting.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 09:45 AM by Linc Highlight this comment 112

Adding to Brandon's post (#66) about bad stadium view's. I have wondered for a long time abut those stairways at Oakland's stadium. There are two, (left and right field corners) in prime baseball seating areas. I've never seen anyone on those stairs, during baseball or football games. Kind of makes you wonder ????

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 11:03 AM by hans Highlight this comment 113

The stairs at the Oakland Coliseum used to be used primarily for football fans sitting on the east sideline. Before the erection of Mt. Davis, the outfield was covered with temporary stands, with the main access to those seats from field level via the stairs in the right and left field corners.

As far as the Vikings not making any money in the Metrodome or in a remodeled Metrodome, that's nonsense. Zygi Wilf, and before him, Red McCombs would never have bought the team if the team wasn't making money. These guys didn't get to be as rich as they are just throwing their money away. What's at stake in this stadium debate isn't so much whether the Vikings are making money, but how much. The Vikings make money, otherwise they'd be locking to doors. They simplye desire to make an obscene amount of money.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 1:39 PM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 114

Winona Mike speaks the truth. I've seen the Vikings books - they make money. The NFL is a corporate machine, always looking for a way to make MORE money.

"because they'll move to L.A. if we don't" is not a base reason the Vikings need a stadium.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 3:19 PM by Elston Gunn Highlight this comment 115

Are they going to have the Joe Mauer MVP press conference tomorrow at Target Field or Mall of America Field at Hubert H Humphrey Metrodome or where? Anyone know?

Also, a couple of interesting tidbits from Shooter's column today:

The umpire shirt worn by St. Paul native Tim Tschida at the Metrodome's final game last season will be displayed in a Twins museum at Target Field, along with an umpire shirt from Bill Haller, who worked the first series at the Dome.

Anyone know where this "Twins museum" will be located in Target Field?

Look for the Twins on Tuesday to announce a major civic program to celebrate their 50th season in Minnesota next year.

I wonder what this "major civic program" will be?

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 4:27 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 116

Thanks for the refreshing baseball post Mike :D

It would be fun if they did it from TF. Do we know a time?

I wonder WHAT a major civic program is? lol

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM by Jax Highlight this comment 117

Possibly the same thing as being a "community organizer"?

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 5:53 PM by luke Highlight this comment 118

It would be great to see the Mauer press conference from Target Field. I wonder if they have the press room completed yet...

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 7:40 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 119

they might as well do it at the dome...after all, mauer hasn't even played at TF yet, so why should he receive the award there?

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 8:59 PM by deenels Highlight this comment 120

"they might as well do it at the dome...after all, mauer hasn't even played at TF yet, so why should he receive the award there?"

Because the moving sale was a symbolic end to their tenure at the Dome. I'm guessing they don't want anything to do with that God Forsaken place again. Frankly, I don't blame them.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 9:25 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 121

Oh, I get it now:

"...before the game, owner Zygi Wilf [reacted to] the recent threat by his landlord, the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission, to raise his rent by $4 million a year if he didn't agree to a lease extension that would keep the team here for at least two years beyond the current 2011 expiration."

The offer was not quite portrayed in the media this way initially. But if that is an accurate characterization, then the MSFC has just committed the biggest bonehead move in the Minnesota sports business world since Carl Pohlad offered a disguised loan to the state for a new stadium back in the 90s.

(The floor is now open for nominations of bigger bonehead moves.)

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 9:35 PM by Rick 122

Oops, forgot the link.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 10:00 PM by Rick 123

1. Walker Trade
2. Joe Smith Deal

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 10:00 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 124

3. Tim Brewster

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 10:03 PM by Elston Gunn Highlight this comment 125

regarding the vikes and the msfc kerfuffle: i knew you would "come around" rick!

;-)

and to answer your question: considering the immense popularity of the vikes in minnesota, north dakota, south dakota and parts of iowa & wisconsin, no i can not think of a bigger "bone head" sports business move than the one the msfc just pulled with the vikings org.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 10:04 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 126

elston gunn - please remind me.....aren't you our resident becky badger wisconsin fan? i forget. thanks!

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 10:05 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 127

elston - if i am confusing you with another poster then please accept my apologies. i know there was a guy not too long ago who was posting here a lot that talked a lot of anti-u of m crap. can't quite remember his moniker.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 10:07 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 128

Not me, and I accept your apology. If I were a Wisconsin guy, I wouldn't be calling the Brewster hire a mistake. And I'd be drunk.

Ski U Mah.

Also, we don't know for sure if the MSFC move will be the scale tipper on the stadium thing.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM by Elston Gunn Highlight this comment 129

I forgot about Brewster...

So what is Dungy up to these days? There should be a head coaching position opening up soon...hopefully.

Posted on November 22, 2009 at 10:38 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 130

I'm sorry but the MSFC has been giving the Vikings the Metrodome rent-free for the past seven years. As the Twins' season wrapped up they let the team get a corporate naming rights sponsor and keep all the proceeds. I for one don't blame them if they want their $4 million that is rightfully owed them under the Vikings' lease. Especially since last I heard the commission had about $11 million left in its funds, which is about what it costs to operate and repair the stadium from year to year.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 12:35 AM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 131

dredogg/elston: glad to hear that wasn't you elston! while even i would love to see tony dungy on the gophers football sideline as the HC (that would be a dream scenario), that is probably not going to happen. everything i read is that tony dungy is not very interested in getting into college level coaching. apparently he doesn't want to deal with the rigors of constant recruiting and traveling, etc. unless he changes his feelings towards that i don't see him getting into the college ranks any time soon.

that said. i support coach brewster and think he needs to be given through at the very minimum next year to see where the gophers football squad is really at. next year he will finally have all of HIS recruits (with the exception of adam weber who was a mason recruit) out there starting and contributing full-time.

brewster has had some highly ranked recruiting classes the last two years and has to be given due credit for that. a lot of those recruits he smartly red-shirted for the long-term. so he had to start a lot of guys the last couple years (because you have to red-shirt some of your freshman recruits if you are trying to build long-term) who were almost all glen mason-era recruits. glen mason did not do a very good job in recruiting during his final two years with the gophers. glen mason's only real recruiting finds who were seniors this year that stick out are eric decker, lee campbell and nate triplett. and of those three only eric decker really stands out as a game-changing type of player. that fact was made quite evident (especially in 2007) with the mason-era talent brewster was left to work with and basically has been forced to play, so that his staff did not have to waste a bunch of red-shirt opportunities.

anyways, i will always support gophers football and will not be jumping off any "band wagons" as they say.

ski-u-mah!

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 12:37 AM by Betaband Highlight this comment 132

buffalo - i am sorry to say this, but most of your digs at the whole vikings/msfc stadium issue "ring a bit hollow" considering you are an admitted packers fan. not sure i trust that you don't have a bit of an agenda when it comes to your perception of the issues. not hating on your personally, just sayin' it is hard to trust any packer backer when the subject is the vikings. if you find that irrational, well then that is your problem! ;-)

peace....

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 12:39 AM by Betaband Highlight this comment 133

You know what I think. I think maybe someone should start a website about the Vikings and their stadium issues if one has not done so already. Not that anyone cares what I think most dont which is ok by me. But somebody here has put alot of time and effort into this website I think we should keep it too the matter at hand. The Twins and the new stadium that opens next spring.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 04:14 AM by Leroy Highlight this comment 134

Thank you Leroy...couldn't agree more. Time to move on boys or start your own blog.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 05:28 AM by Jim Highlight this comment 135

Or you could just not read the posts.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 08:24 AM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 136

Mauer will receive his award at Target Field next year before one of the games. Remember they don't get the awards right away.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 08:40 AM by MB Highlight this comment 137

I'm gonna agree with buffalo, MSFC has been pretty good to the vikes with the rent free and name change etc. As for the new stadium, i doubt the people of Hennepin county want to pay for another stadium

Anyway i had planned to use this comment to agree with Leroy about getting a new blog, but yeah, then i got to thinking, sure this is a twins ballpark blog, but since not much is going on with off season trades with the twins, why not extend this to all MN sports. Rick did have posts for just TCFBS, so yeah.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 08:57 AM by The Sooj Highlight this comment 138

You are correct MB, but they will still have a press conference today to announce him winning the AL MVP award, even though he will receive the actual award during a pre-game ceremony TBD next year.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 09:17 AM by Mike Highlight this comment 139

As a Minnesota native and a taxpayer, I would say my opinion on the funding for the Vikings stadium is just as relevant as yours. Again, I'm not opposed to funding one under the right deal, I just think the Vikings and Wilf are going about this wrong with no nod at all to what the economic situation is in this state right now.

Even with jerks like you as Vikings fans (I'm sorry little winking smiley faces don't absolve you from your attitude and little rips), I still support keeping the team here. I want that rivalry and it would be a bit boring without it.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 09:47 AM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 140

Good point dredogg-- home boy

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 09:53 AM by Jim Highlight this comment 141

The Vikings have had a sweetheart deal at the dome ever since it opened. They have had an even better one the last several years, residing rent free. If they want a stadium they can d*mn well pay for it. No way I am going to support a billion dollars for a stadium used 8 times a year for football when we have people being cut off from health care, a crumbling transportation infrastructure and serious budget shortfalls at every public agency.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 09:58 AM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 142

Jax, we all need more civics, I believe. The reason our state is in the mess it's in is because people have become complacent about their public lives.

And luke, a community organizer does far more to improve your life and mine than most of the rest of us. You probably know a few, though they may not make it known to you.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 10:01 AM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 143

Word is bond.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 10:15 AM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 144

The only reason the msfc is gonna charge the 4 mil a year is if they dont sign a 2 year lease.. i mean come on sign a 2 year lease....

i am a vikes fan and would like a new stadium but this is also the wrong time to ask us to pay for it...like david said our city, state and country is literlly falling apart around us and the only people that seem to make money these days are nfl, mlb ect...

it sucks cuz im sure they will try to leave... this fuckin dump was built to apese the vikes and now they say its a shit hole...they have always gotten more money than the twins did out of it and it was not even close...

hopefully we can pull a harry crump or somthing to buy some time...

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 10:25 AM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 145

To the dumb a$$es who don't think the Vikes need a new stadium or don't support it. Don't complain when they leave!

This is a Viking State Twins Fans! I love all our teams, but the Vikes are #1. This state is filled with a bunch of do nothing stubborn idiots. We lost the Lakers, the Stars, almost the T-Wolves if you remember, the Twins and now the Vikes.

If I was Wilf, I would say listen here JackA$$'s I'm leaving in 2 years unless you pony up. The stupid people here will let them leave and just like the Lakers, the Star's and every other team, We'll try and lure another team back.

It cost us triple to get the Wild whom by the way will never replace the history of the Stars. The Stars won the Stanley Cup in Dallas. The Lakers we know have won many championships outside of Minny.

Is it fair we as tax payers have to pay. No, but the point is every state does it. If your not willing, some other state will be happy to take them off your hands.

We are taxed for many public things that not all people enjoy. Like the Gutherie, Prisons, Libraries. So people should just shut it when it comes to a Stadium. That stadium will serve many purposes besides the Vikings. Tractor Pulls, SuperBowls, Final Fours, Olympics?

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 10:35 AM by Todd Highlight this comment 146

Mazaratirick, your comment is pathetic. The Vikings have been trying for over 10 years to get a new stadium. Now might not be the right time, but what about when we had government surpluses. The Vikes were rejected then too.

You sound like a politician. You have no idea how much its going to cost you? Nobody does. I'm sick of hearing all those people complain that they are being taxed. Do you know how much?

The fruits like John Marty bitch but they won't even come to the table. How do we know there is not some solution that works for everyone? We don't because the assumption is that it goes against the principles of society.

Pawlenty talks out of 2 sides of his mouth. I remember him saying that when the Twins and Gophers were in line for a stadium, that he wanted to take care of the Vikes at the same time. He didn't want to revisit the stadium thing again. Then he whispers and say's the Vikings are an asset to the state, blah blah fricken blah. What does he do...Nothing....That is the state of Minnesota for you.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 10:45 AM by Todd Highlight this comment 147

I agree that MN is penny wise and pound foolish sometimes. It will cost more to bring a new franchise to MN than to keep the one they have, because there is no way the NFL will put a new franchise here without a new stadium.

I agree it is a tough situation economically now, but I think if everyone comes to the table and works to get something done, a Vikings stadium deal can be done. But airing it out in the media just seems to worsen things. I do think the state should only put in 20-25% maximum on the deal, and it should not be contingent on it being retractable multi use stadium. We don't need a retractable dome for football, just like we don't need one for baseball.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:08 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 148

How have the Vikings been "trying", Todd? By hoping that something gets rammed through the legislature?

If they (you) really want this stadium so badly then they (you) should put together some serious community outreach and be honest with the public about revenue streams, costs and benefits, etc. All of the finger pointing and bitching about the all-powerful dollar is really not an effective way to garner support for such a project, especially if you consider the economic straights we're in.

Seriously, Todd. Reread your last two posts and then try to convince me that the agreessive, pissed off attitude you have (and the Vikes aren't too far off from where you're at; they're just slightly more articulate and diplomatic) is deserving of any support or respect.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:19 AM by Vince Highlight this comment 149

David (aka David) and Mazaratirick:

If you scroll back through this thread, you will see an idea I proposed that wouldn't cost you a dime. I'm trying to think outside the box - I wish more people would try that instead of just saying no.

And Todd brings up a great point. Let's not forget, if we built the Twins ballpark back in the 90's, it would be on the river where the Guthrie is and it would have a roof, and still would have cost less than what Target Field did. Now I love Target Field, so I'm ok with how things worked out, but I think everyone forgets that stalling = more money needed. And if the Vikings leave, we're eventually going to end up paying 100% for a new building (which will probably cost 2 billion by that point) so we can lure the Bills or Jaguars here. Sure, it will be a team, but it won't be the same. Just like the Wild will never truly replace the North Stars for their fans

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:26 AM by TC 34 Highlight this comment 150

Recipe for stadium success = call more people fruits. Genius.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:26 AM by strategery Highlight this comment 151

I just want to clarify that I do really want the stadium deal to get done. If my previous post seemed to indicate otherwise, that's not the case. My issue is with the angry and aggressive attitude that some folks have about the stadium. It frustrates me because I don't see how any rational person can think it's an effective way to build a case in support of the stadium project.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:28 AM by Vince Highlight this comment 152

on the roof issue, I think the Vikings new stadium should have one. If the state is going to spend a lot of money on one, I want it used more than just 10 times a year. It should be able to host NCAA events and other indoor events. Reliant Stadium in Houston is used year round, for everything from Disney on Ice, a college bowl game, NCAA basketball, to the Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:30 AM by TC 34 Highlight this comment 153

Vince, first off, I don't need to put together anything! That is not my responsibility. I'm a sports fan first and foremost. I assume you are too, that is why your on this site.

I don't know if you are a passionate Twins fan first, but I would think your happy that the Twins got a new stadium?

The Vikings don't owe you or I anything. They don't have to be polite. In fact, I think Ziggy has been too polite. He's not rich for being stupid. All you guys who think he needs to be Minnesota Nice to get a stadium passed are as naive as the legislature.

Tell me this. Why should Ziggy bust his chops to convince Minnesota they need a new stadium? There are states chomping at the bit to get professional football and willing to provide stadiums to attract them. He would be stupid to pay for the entire stadium when other states will pay the ticket. Hey, I didn't make the rules. That's the way it is.

When the Viking move because you and the legislature are looking for Ziggy to be polite, don't whine like a baby when we don't have Pro Football. At least Football has its house in order.

Baseball is ridiculous. As you can see the big market squads rule and will forever rule until a salary cap is in order. Their farm teams are every team because they can pick their own players during free agency.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:41 AM by Todd Highlight this comment 154

Todd,

"Is it fair that we as taxpayers have to pay? No, but the point is every state does it."

What about Gillette Stadium - home of the Patriots? Kraft tried for years to get MA to pay for the stadium - when they wouldn't, he borrowed almost $500 million and paid for it himself. His yearly loan repayments constitute about 1/2 of what he reaps in from sponsorships and premium seating sales. The state had to pay just under $75 million for infrastructure improvements around the new stadium, which the team is required to pay back over 25 years. Does it appear the Patriots are hurting financially?

I'm not against a publically financed stadium, but these assertions that a team can only be solvent if the taxpayers pony up are not entirely accurate.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:49 AM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 155

sp - publicly

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:51 AM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 156

Reasons the Twins needed a new stadium:

1. They were losing money
2. Dome was a terrible place to watch 82 games per year

Reasons the Vikings NEED a new stadium:

???

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:52 AM by Elston Gunn Highlight this comment 157

Ummmmm wtf someone took my username and passworded it? Why would you take mine?

Anyway...

Why the Vikigns will not get a stadium done if Zygi continues to try to shoehorn it into minneapolis:

In 1998 Red Mccombs started a stadium push because he bought a team to make money off of. He thought that getting a stadium deal would be easy so he purchased the team and was set to make a windfall after a stadium was built. But there were two problems with that thoguht. 1) the dome was only 16 years old and the state legislature was not about to finance another stadium that was less than two decades old. 2) Red McCombs was an out of state owner and went about the process in an antagonistic way.

So Zygi Wilf is on the scene. He lays low on the Stadium pitch for a year. The Twins gain financing for their ball park as does the Gophers. Shortly thereafter the 35w bridge collapses and we find ourselves in one of the worst economic times we have ever seen short of the great depression. So the timing sucks.

Now on top of all that going on, Zygi left the Anoka deal on the table and headed back to focus on minnespolis. The problem with the minneapolis site is multi-faceted. Firstly Hennepin County cannot get involved because it is already funding the Twins stadium. The city of Minneapolis can only pledge 10m to any one project at a time. And the state is operating on a 4b deficit.

To complicate matters Zygi says that the team will nto pay for a roof. the problem with that idea is that if you are going to put a stadium downtown it HAS to have a roof. We cannot have a facility there that is unusable for 6 months out of the year. The only way to get a stadium done downtown is to get the state involved. And he is asking the state to pick up the tab for 750million. That folks is not going to happen. He wants the stadium downtown so that he can develop downtown east, something that indeed needs to happen and the community would benefit from that but not at the tune of 750million.

So the probelm is that if Zygi is committed solely to the downtown site then he is running this thing inot the ground.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 12:05 PM by moda253 the 2nd Highlight this comment 158

To Elston- An answer to your question -So the rich get richer,way richer. I Like having the NFL in town but I am not so sure how we can keep them here.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 12:09 PM by Tom D. Highlight this comment 159

Will the state finally realize that a State-run casino is the way to go? Look at how Mystic is adding on non-stop to their casino! I wish the state would cancel their agreements with the tribes and build a casino to pay for schools, pro sports, and any other venture!

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 12:18 PM by Steeks Highlight this comment 160

Todd, I'm really not seeking out an e-fight or a war of words with anyone. So let me just try to clafiry:

The public does not see the value in funding a billion dollar stadium in this economic climate. If it was as obvious to the majority of the people in this state as it is to you it would have already been done. I don't think this is an arguable point.

As such, the Vikes have a public relations problem on their hands (a public who fails to see the value in a project that they are calling "necessary" and quasi-demanding be done) and a stadium deal won't get done until they fix the problem.

Ask yourself these questions: have the Vikings done everything they can to build support for the new stadium? Have they exhausted all options as far as reaching out to the community is concerned? Have they done their utmost to educate people on how they will benefit from the new stadium?

Take a look at the work the Twins did to get TF approved or look at what was done in Brown County to get the Lambeau renovation passed. There are ways to build support for projects like this, Todd, and that's my point.

Shouting about how obvious it is to build a stadium while calling everyone that could actually help make something happen a moron is not an effective way to build support for the project, dude. Period.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 12:22 PM by Vince Highlight this comment 161

Elston the same reasons that you state for teh Twins needing a new stadium apply to the Vikings. Maybe the Vikes aren't in the hole, but they are last in the league and if you are last in the league you are losing money that you would otherwise be gaining. When that is directly related to the facility that you are operating in then you need to change things up. The Vikings have honored their lease, if construction started today they will have fulfilled their lease agreement in fun by the time a new facility opened. If they build on site they can still honor that lease and play at the gophers stadium for two years while the stadium is built.

Now as for viewing a football game tehre. Sure as seated fans it's fin... Until you get to the concourses. ALl the same gripes that twins fans have about the concourses apply to Vikings fans. Have you forgotten about trying to take a piss during a game? Yeah that is even WORSE at a vikings game. A lot worse.

Moreover the complaining that the Vikings made their bed with the metrodome is a sad argument. That was what three ownership groups ago and near three decades??? What happenned back then by the idiots running things then is really of no relation to the current incarnation of teh Vikings.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 12:24 PM by moda253 the 2nd Highlight this comment 162

Wow, this thread has turned into a catfight.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 12:28 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 163

Exhibition game times set for Target Field?

Friday, April 2 5:10 pm CT
Saturday, April 3 1:10 pm CT

Found these game times on the St. Louis Cardinals Spring Training schedule.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:00 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 164

Vince,

I agree. I'm not saying I know all the answers because I don't. I just know from being involved in sports my whole life, what has transpired in Minnesota.

As everyone is aware of what happened to the Lakers, North Stars, T-Wolves and Twins were both on the chopping block. No matter the issue, this needs resolve. Let's not pretend there is not an issue and solve it.

My issue is not with whether people should be onboard with being taxed. My issue is our local politicians that are not willing to work on a solution. It is not just a Viking problem or a Twins problem or a North Stars problem. For any sport fan or entertainment fan these are important to our enjoyment.

Life isn't fair and it will never be fair, so we have to stop judging the Wilfs of the world. He has put way more into this team then all the previous owners combined. Not to mention, the Vikings wanted a stadium way back when we had 12 owners.

My problem is that excuses keep coming up that its an election year, Its a bad economy. There are some positives to the economy from building a stadium.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:01 PM by Todd Highlight this comment 165

27 out of 28 1st Place votes went to Mauer. Landslide. We have the best player in all of MLB. Time to give him a ring!!

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:03 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 166

an interesting article from today's st. paul pioneer press about the vikings stadium issues and the metropolitan sports facilities commission (msfc). click on my name for a link. also, below is a portion of the story.

Vikings/Wilf to deal directly with legislators now in quest for new Minnesota Vikings stadium:

"Common sense dictates the Vikings and Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission need each other. After all, the Vikings want a new stadium and the commission was created to get them one.

Not so, say the Vikings.

In fact, after the commission voted Thursday to extend the Vikings' Metrodome lease — and, in effect, the stadium debate — the team contends it can do better on its own.

"To try to avoid the issue, like the commission did, is really punting, when they should be really engaged in trying to find the way to solve this issue," Vikings owner Zygi Wilf said Sunday before his team's 35-9 victory over the Seattle Seahawks.

Since the vote, the Vikings say, they have met with leaders in business, labor and the Legislature, including representatives of Gov. Tim Pawlenty."

i say good work by the vikings in by-passing the metropolitan sports facilities commission (msfc) altogether. the msfc has done nothing but purposely drag their feet on the issue and have only done it to give legislators cheap political cover by not forcing them to address the issue. the msfc doesn't want to be REAL partner with the vikings in finding a timely public/private stadium solution, well then the vikings should just go directly to the source and tell the msfc to go and "pound sand".

nice move by the vikes and ownership. take out the unnecessary middle-man that is the msfc!

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:09 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 167

Awesome Year For Mauer! The MVP is his. I think we may be approaching a time when "The Greatest Twin of All Time" debate should be reopened.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:16 PM by Andrew Highlight this comment 168

From the Twins:

YOU'RE INVITED TO THE "TWINS AROUND TOWN" ANNOUCEMENT
All fans are invited to join the Twins and the Minneapolis Downtown Council on Tuesday, Nov. 24 at Noon at the IDS Crystal Court as they make an announcement about the first-ever statue program in Minneapolis. "Twins Around Town" will feature life-sized statues modeled after Twins greats Harmon Killebrew, Kirby Puckett and Joe Mauer, placed around downtown Minneapolis.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:17 PM by Excited Highlight this comment 169

Beta I'm not buying the whole MSFC / Vimings flare up. I think it's a savvy move to have this blow up in the media. The MSFC knows it needs the Vikes and the 4 million for two years isn't really what they are looking for. They want long term payments. So you have teh blow up publicly, the vikings get some sympathetic reporting. The Vikings go their rout for a stadium push the MSFC goes tehir route as well and you have a two pronged approach with the legislature given two options to choose from.

Of course there is a third option of turning both options down, which is what i think will happen if the Vikes continue to push for a downtown minneapolis only site.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:26 PM by moda253 the 2nd Highlight this comment 170

Joe Mauer = very good singles hitter. Is he the MVP of the Twins? Undoubtedly. Is he MVP of the LEAGUE? Not sure I can say that.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:32 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 171

Please - everyone just ignore him. He's trying to elicit a response. Don't play into his hands.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:38 PM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 172

"...went on to lead the AL in batting average (.365), on-base percentage (.444) and slugging percentage (.587), the first AL player to top all three categories in the same season since George Brett in 1980."

That should be enough to convince you, Truth. While 28 HR's isn't Ruth-like, his slugging percentage proved he has enough power to deserve this award.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:38 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 173

Thank you, DreDogg. Your comments were helpful.

Expectorate - what is your problem, dude?

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:42 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 174

Whoever the Detroit homer is who voted for Miguel Cabrera, should never vote again.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:50 PM by MATT Highlight this comment 175

Yeah, no crap Matt! The general AP article out there says that Miguel will get $200k for finishing 4th!

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:57 PM by DeePee Highlight this comment 176

And expanding on those stats above, from MLB article:

"giving him what some stat gurus have deemed the modern Triple Crown."

For what it's worth...more stats people are gravitating towards these numbers and away from HR's and RBI's as the other two "defining" stats that constitute a great hitter.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 1:58 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 177

Nice going Joe... This link from CBS gives us piece of mind that Miguel will have enough beer money when the Tigers play in Seattle.

Mauer receives a $100,000 bonus for winning the award, and Cabrera gets $200,000 for finishing fourth. Cabrera's first-place vote came from Keizo Konishi of Kyodo News, a member of the Seattle chapter.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 2:05 PM by Not Mendoza Highlight this comment 178

Hey my mistake, TTH - I assumed you knew something about baseball stats, and were just trying to get us riled up. I didn't realize you didn't know what slugging percentage means. You don't lead the league in slugging % by being a "good singles hitter." Batting Avg and on-base %, maybe, but not slugging %. The offensive year he had is Ted Williams-like, literally. Take that away, and his gold-glove defense, Twins don't win the division.

I won't make that assumption again - my mistake.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 2:06 PM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 179

Somewhere down the list of vote-getters -- call them AVPs (Also Valuable Players) -- I noticed two more familiar names: Michael Cuddyer and Jason Kubel.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 2:13 PM by Rick 180

Mike - I believe that the start time for the Exhibition games are 7:05 on Friday and 1:05 on Saturday . That is from the Cardinals schedule
http://springtrainingonline.com/teams/st-louis-cardinals-3.htm

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 2:06 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 181

clublevelfan - Interesting find. Whether its 5pm or 7pm, at least we know its going to be an evening/night game on Friday, April 2.

I got my information from the official Cardinals website as linked in my post #164. Either way, its tentative and can still change.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 2:28 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 182

Press conference will be at 3pm at the Dome. Why not Target Field? SEE LINK!!!

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 2:28 PM by Michael Highlight this comment 183

Michael - Target Field is still a CONSTRUCTION JOB SITE. Therfore, if you set foot inside the construction barrier, you must wear Safety Glasses, Hard Hat, and Safety Vest.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 2:37 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 184

I think Mauer should have received this award because he had outstanding numbers this year, leading the league in batting average, on-base percentage, and slugging percentage. And think about it, Mauer missed the entire month of April and he still put up these numbers. Wow! Some of the other players that could have received this award were the Yankee’s Derek Jeter and Mark Teixeira. This means that Major League Baseball is paying attention to small-market teams and I like that because it is the AL MVP award, not the AL East MVP award. Good job Major League Baseball.

BTW, Are all the seats installed at Target Field now?

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 2:39 PM by Michael Highlight this comment 185

Mike - I never should have questioned you. I confirmed with the Twins that the start time of the April 2 game is at 5:10. It was originally scheduled for 7:05 and then it was changed.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 3:04 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 186

Man those wood-backed seats are sharp.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 3:19 PM by Brandon T Highlight this comment 187

TC 23, a casino is a non-starter. We have treaties with sovereign nations that prevent it. Do you really want to break yet another treaty with those folks? To do so would be unconscionable.

Todd, please take some time to actually talk to legislators. They have an extremely difficult task ahead of them, one made much worse by Pawlenty's grandstanding. They are simply not in a position to act on a stadium this year. Especially with elections coming up. Wilf is coming off as the naive one here. He's playing power politics that I'm sure works well in the corporate landscape but public officials are not so easily bullied.

I don't think any public official will be voted out for funding a stadium. Nor do I think they will be voted out for not funding a stadium. But they may very well be voted out for raising OTHER taxes to cover shortfalls and state needs, money that could come from the same funding source as the stadium. That's the political problem. Funding a stadium in isolation is not a problem. Funding a stadium in the current economic and political climate is a non-starter.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 3:32 PM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 188

David,
Why would breaking a treaty with sovereign nations be unconscionable? Heck, most laws nowadays are made to be legislated and changed once again. A State-Run casino seems to be the best option in this economic climate! The sovereign nations have plenty of cash the way it is; they don’t need to build even larger coffers.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 3:38 PM by Steeks Highlight this comment 189

Steeks,

It's unconscionable because history matters. We've screwed these people over too many times. If the tribes want to renegotiate the treaty, fine, but the legislature cannot just pass a bill without a vtreaty change. And that ain't gonna happen this year or next.

I could just as easily say the Vikings already have enough cash and so they don't need a stadium. See how this works?

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 4:12 PM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 190

Actually, missing a month may have helped his numbers based on percents: BA, OBP and SLG. Very impressive nonetheless, and his RBI and HR are of course more impressive given the missed month.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 4:21 PM by robin Highlight this comment 191

From a Chicago Tribune projection (found on the Boston Herald site) of where free agents will land:

"Rich Harden, Twins: While a contract extension for Joe Mauer is priority No. 1, the Twins have money to spend with the move to Target Field. Harden and Justin Morneau played together on select teams in British Columbia."

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 4:23 PM by Rick 192

A crazy thought...considering that the Shakopee tribe made a significant contribution to TCF Bank stadium, could they just build a Viking stadium and collect the revenue? Not sure what the numbers are on cash flow for the casino relative to a stadium deal, but you'd think they could self finance a large chunk of it.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 5:09 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 193

David,

Are you serious? Giv'me a fricken break.

Most of the legislatures are idots and clowns. They can't even break sessions without a special session. They can't agree on some of the most fundamental laws and budgets.

Everything that spews from their political mouths are b.s. You and I and everybody else is just a bystander watching this unfold. You have no comment that politicians have not already heard.

I'm sick of everyone using the economy as a factor. What do you have to say about this during great economic times? Didn't matter to the legislatures then and it won't matter now.

I don't want to hear those same a-holes bitchin and complaining when this team is gone after 2011. There is no way around it. The Vikes are gone 2011 and you can take that to the bank.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 5:20 PM by Todd Highlight this comment 194

Most of you are forgetting that the NFL is pushing the stadium. Sure Ziggy is the front person because its his market. He's not losing money right now because they have revenue sharing. The Packers and other small markets are subsiding the Vikings.

If you're not aware, the NFL is locking out the players union after next season unless they agree on a new labor agreement. There is talk about cutting out revenue sharing. At that time, if markets like the Vikings don't have a new stadium with naming right and revenue, they are going to be severly in the red like the Twins were.

The NFL is a fraternity and they watch out for one another, that is why moving the Viking to Los Angeles is going to be simple. No lease which will make suing them impossible and LA may get 2 teams to play in that new stadium.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 5:31 PM by Todd Highlight this comment 195

The MVP should have gone to someone more deserving like Texeira, he's the one who won a world series.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 5:50 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 196

Todd - consider this, you may not like it, but it's the truth:

FACT is - the Vikings have pissed off the legislature - by using Lester Bagley - by threatening to move all the time - by presuming they were going to just roll over and give the Vikings whatever they wanted, or else... the legislature got their dander up about it.

say what you want about the situation on the ground - but the reason the Vikings got shut out in 2006, and the Twins and Gophers did... had more to do with their willingness to compromise and find reasonable solutions - whereas the vikings seemed averse to compromise.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 5:55 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 197

ok, Its official, TTH has lost his marbles

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 5:58 PM by deenels Highlight this comment 198

Why do the Vikings need a new stadium?
Do you think that place makes The Purple any money? Good grief, if the Twins and their MVP Joe Mauer couldn't make money in there, who's to say The Purple makes money? The Dome is a terrible place to play period, and should be torched.

And wouldn't it be cool if the Super Bowl actually was HERE again in our, our children's, their children's and their children's children's lifetimes? Not with Humpty Dumpty still sitting on the corner of 5th St and Chicago Av. Not a chance. The Purple need a new stadium.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 6:01 PM by luke Highlight this comment 199

Truth,

Everyone knows they vote for MVPs before the playoffs begin.

So, you're either an idiot or a troll. I don't know which is worse.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 6:07 PM by Elston Gunn Highlight this comment 200

Can't it be both?

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 6:17 PM by David Z Highlight this comment 201

CJ,

What reasonable solution did the Twins provide? They weren't willing to compromise. Pohlad threated to sell to Don Beaver in North Carolina. He asked Major League Baseball to be contracted or fold how ever you want to put it. Were you alive then??? Pohlad tried to put off $150Million towards the new stadium as his contribution when in fact it was a loan.

The Twins settled and they got a ballpark because the dome was built for football. The Gophers got a stadium because they should be on campus.

Remember, taxpayers are paying taxes in Hennipen County for the Twins. Don't sugarcoat that as the Twins willingness to compromise.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 7:12 PM by Todd Highlight this comment 202

OK... somebody stole my name too. I did not make the Texeira comment. Why somebody would want to impersonate me, I have no idea.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 7:15 PM by THE Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 203

Yeah right.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 7:27 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 204

Todd,

why dont you take it down a notch huh? if you would have read my post and been so trigger happy on thinking how fast you can "burn" me or anyone else on here maybe you would have seen that I want a ew stadium for the vikes, im just saying it is what it is.. do you really think the vikes are gonna get a new stadium right now when the gophs and the twins just got one and the state is broke? and yes the vikes are making money.. not as much as the cowboys but boy are they making money. I wish them well for the stadium push but hopefully d-bags like you dont get to help with that cause or it will be shut down quick. yellin, and calling names is not a way to get people to listen to you, TTH makes more sense than you...your like my boy Betaband on meth i swear!

the vikings will need to wait for thier turn... it will come but of course when all the other kids get new toys i can understand how it is hard to wait.. this is just my opinion.

Todd you should change your screen name to Lester bagley!!! cuz you are about as good of a mouthpeice for the vikes as he is....

bottem line if the vikes sign a 2 year lease it will give the economy time to recover, they still will be able to opt oout after two years and if they dont they go year to year...I WANT THE VIKE TO GET A NEW OPEN AIR STADIUM..... i just dont think it will happen in the next 2 years when they dont wanna pay as much as the cheap ass pohlads did... (% wise not dollar amount)

ok light me up!

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 7:30 PM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 205

Wow, a little bit of an identity crisis here on BallparkMagic....I'll cut TTH some slack, this time.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 7:32 PM by deenels Highlight this comment 206

Access logs are a beautiful thing. It means that I can figure who does stuff and ban them by IP. That's not really something I want to get into...

TTH, your old handle has your new password. Moda, your old handle is released.

Sheesh.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 7:48 PM by Rick 207

Luke, of the many things I want for my kids during their lifetime, having a Super Bowl in Minneapolis isn't really on that list.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 8:21 PM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 208

I'm no lawyer, but if they have a card room at Canterbury why can't they add slot machines as has been proposed? Someone said we could raise enough nickels that way to fund a Vikings stadium and more. What possible reason could there be not to do this in a heartbeat? And don't give me that old "expansion of gambling" saw. That horse left the barn DECADES ago. Sin taxes are the only way legislators seem to be able to raise money these days.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 8:28 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 209

No roof, no Super Bowl.
Not that I care.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM by robin Highlight this comment 210

Why not take the money the players pay in taxes per year to pay for bonds for a new stadium for the Vikes. Whats the vikes payroll like $100 million, so take the $20 million or so they pay a year in taxes and pay the bonds on the new place. With the money the NFL contributes and the player taxes its a no brainer. $20 million times 30 years is $600 million... If the team leaves you lose that money anyways, so why not put it toward the new stadium. It would stimulate the economy by puting alot of people to work building a stadium.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 9:05 PM by firedog Highlight this comment 211

The Super Bowl is worth alot of money Buffalo. Minnesota has to change its image a bit.

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 9:12 PM by luke Highlight this comment 212

Can't we just shake the tobacco tree again?

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 9:46 PM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 213

Can it be? Block E has another tenant?

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 10:01 PM by Jim Highlight this comment 214

todd -

dont have the link in front of me - but i outlined how the 2006 session went down (i was there, from the beginning) in another post.

basically - the twins were deadlocked until they found a solution that was tenable for the legislators - they had to work out the deal and the details... the ten years of deadlock for them involved them taking the vikings current approach - a nonstarter with the folks at the cap.

what is holding the vikings back right now is their hubris more than anything - the extortion technique really just pisses the reps off... that, and they all pretty much despise Lester Bagley (who is a supreme douche from all accounts) so that doesn't help

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:51 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 215

btw - rick, if you happen to know where that is (i think you highlighted it in green) anyway - if you can post it for to make benefit of others - muy appreciado

Posted on November 23, 2009 at 11:54 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 216

Firedog, I like your attitude. Thinking creatively. I agree that's a good idea. Lawmakers of course will complain that cuts into the General fund, but you're right - if the Vikings leave, there goes 20+ Million in payroll & sales tax.

Mazaratirick, let's be honest. There never is a good time to build a stadium with state money. If there was, we'd have 3 new stadiums already open from the days when the state was running big surpluses. The lawmakers didn't want to do it then either. If we found a way to fund it that didn't involve raising you or I's taxes, it shouldn't matter when they do it. Remember, the money the state spent wouldn't be going into the Wilf's pockets - it would be going to the people who designed and built it. Now I'm not buying the Vikings figures on how many thousands of jobs they think it would create, but with unemployment up, it couldn't hurt. Again, this is only if they come up with a creative way to fund it.

David (aka David), I'm not really sure you read my post, because if you did, you would have gotten my name right, and you would have seen that I said PARTNER with the tribes. We wouldn't be screwing them over, we'd be working with them. The stadium bonds would get a chunk of profits, so would the tribes. And it would open a new market to them (for those of us who don't feel like driving way out to their casinos) and make them money. I think they would at least listen to the idea.

Hell, there are other ways to do it: Hotel tax (.5% in the metro, .25% outstate). It gets paid by people who visit, and I doubt those people would change their plans over a small increase like that (especially when other cities like Chicago have much higher hotel taxes). Add $5 to the ticket price for every event at the new stadium. Do the payroll tax. Hell, add a scratch game or even Vikings license plates. I'd pay a premium for plates - hell, they do in Wisconsin. The point is there are ways to do it without sticking it to those who don't care about the Vikings. But all lawmakers seem to do is bury their heads in the sand.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 12:04 AM by TC 34 Highlight this comment 217

moda253 the 2nd, I think downtown is the best site for a new Vikings stadium. Why do you think it's so bad? It's more centralized, there are several freeways right around it, and there is easy access to light rail (which will soon add the central corridor) and Northstar. Plus, there's plenty of parking for those who do drive. I think Anoka County was a terrible location. The only way in is to drive, and most fans would come from the same direction. Ask Redskins fans how much fun that is. From everything I hear, going to a game there is an all day event because of how long it takes to get there, and to get out. Another negative to Anoka County - there would be nothing around the site, so people would just drive in, watch the game, and leave. At least downtown you can go grab a beer and wait for the crowds to die down.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 12:21 AM by TC 34 Highlight this comment 218

Ok to get back to Target Field. Apparently the updates and new photos have come to a crawl or standstill. Is anyone going to take some new pics of the ballpark.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 07:52 AM by NewGuy Highlight this comment 219

i'm hopefully going either tomorrow or friday down to the site to take pictures.

when they are posted, i'll let everyone know (and hope they don't get lost in all the negativity and hostility that is being spewed on this board)

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 08:09 AM by annoyingcustomer Highlight this comment 220

Also, it seems that the Ballpark Authority has ceased all postings of pictures or video updates.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 08:16 AM by Jim Highlight this comment 221

Mazaratirick,

Your on crack. This is fun! I'll explain it to you and anyone else is who is sipping the cool-aid from the Minnesota Lawmakers.

One thing I do agree with you is that Lester Bagley is goofball.

Stop...I repeat stop using the economy as a crutch. Nobody says the stadium needs to be built this year. The boneheads need to come together and create a long term solution.

Did John Marty come over to your house and cast a spell on you? The dome is a toilet and whether you like it or not, the Vikings are gone after 2011. It's too bad because the Vikings are the best form of entertainment we have in Minnesota. The Twins do the best with what they have, but baseball is a complete mess. Today, everyone is talking about whether the Twins have a chance to sign Mauer and if so, will they have enough money to bring in other talent?

Pro Football has caps and gives everyone an equal opportunity to compete.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 09:04 AM by Todd Highlight this comment 222

CJ,

What you and everyone on this board who thinks I'm trying to antagonize by taking the other side is mistaken.

I'm just pointing on the simple facts that is hard for those to swallow. Nobody wants our teams to leave Minnesota.

The reality of the situation is harsh and cold, but don't be naive to think it can't or won't happen.

The one thing I will say over and over that have caused everyone to get their pants in a bundle is we have a do nothing legislature.

That is true and you can't dispute it. While it's true that they have some good points about bailing out billionaires, they fail to step up to the plate. What I mean by that is they won't tackle controversial issues.

Everything that ever is complicated, the Minnesota politicians turn the other way and run. That involves coming to a consensus on budgets, ending the sessions on time. Realizing their are issues with our sports assets. They are assets by the way. Maybe not to the extent that Sports wants them to think, but they do serve a meaningful purpose.

As mush credit as you want to give the lawmakers and Twins for coming to an agreement, it took way too much time. It cost the state a lot more money and in the end, we're no better off.

See what you don't realize is instead of Muli Millions to solve a problem today, its going to cost Billions to solve a problem in the future. Nobody can dispute that either.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 09:15 AM by Todd Highlight this comment 223

I think some of us should run for Congress or learn to vote better.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 09:21 AM by Steeks Highlight this comment 224

Amen TC34,

You and a couple others on here understand what is going on with the Viking situation.

That's right, charge the outstate people taxes like rental cars, hotels, etc. Like said, its not going to deter people from coming for business or anything else for that matter. By the way anytime most of you travel, your paying for other market stadiums through those very same taxes.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 09:23 AM by Todd Highlight this comment 225

Last night I noticed Twins administrators in the offices above left field. And come to find out today, Twins buyers are already holding their purchasing meetings at the park. I should have more info in a few days about when the Twins plan on opening the store...(and start paid ballpark tours?)

Vikings peeps, if you're going to berate commenters and call people names, go hang out in a KFAN chatroom. Screaming and kicking only makes you come off like a bigger box of dicks. Is there any more chat of a county sponsored deal, like the Blaine deal Zygi screwed up?

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 09:26 AM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 226

Good eye on the Kieran's move, Jim. I think they will thrive there as that location is now very prime since it across the street from the mouth of the Target Field plaza. They already have a major following and I can certainly see this as a major pre-game and post-game sud spot for Twins game goers. Nice move all around. I think it will give Block E some bonafide credibility back (I guess you could easily debate that it was never really there) and bring some life back to that immediate vicinity.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 09:48 AM by DeePee Highlight this comment 227

Several interesting Twins topics to discuss.
1) Paid ballpark tours? First I have heard of this, however it kind of dampens my enthusiasm to think we would we visiting while snow is covering everything. I have heard that Dec 1, is the date when they move from a construction site to a completed structure (although still finishing touches to work on). Would this been the first time no construction employees can begin to work on site?
2) From today’s Strib "We're going to do everything we can to keep him as a Minnesota Twin," said Morneau, who has four years remaining on his six-year, $80 million deal. "The biggest thing now isn't the money. It's going to be whether or not he feels we can win every day with the talent we have." Do you think Morneau is correct? Is money truly not the issue for Joe?
3) Again from the same article “Season ticket requests have nearly doubled to 18,500, and there are hints the Twins could push next year's Opening Day payroll past $90 million -- with future increases to come -- after starting last year at $65 million.” I would have thought that they had sold more than 18,500 season ticket plans. Or do you think that is counting 4 twenty game plans to count as one full season plan? What do you think the season ticket total will turn out to be? Will this ultimately have an effect on our payroll or is it totally independent?
4) Many good topics to discuss from that article. “Choosing to pay Mauer and a good supporting cast will be difficult even if the Twins push their payroll to $100 million by 2011. Only one team in baseball history has won the World Series with one player making 20 percent of the payroll -- the 2003 Marlins with catcher Ivan Rodriguez. If we give Joe $20 million per year, can we win a world series?
Interested in your comments.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 09:50 AM by minn55441 Highlight this comment 228

minn55441,

I think they're talking about full season equivalent packages with that 18,500. I hope we push that up over 20,000 as the Twins have been talking about! Rick (or anyone else) do you think that's possible?

As far as Joe goes...

I really do think it's not solely about the money, and he's not alone in that mindset. Albert Puhols also said as much at the end of the season. I don't think we'll ask Joe for a hometown discount, but I don't think he'll demand the max (which could possibly reach toward 30 million a year).

I also think we can definitely win a WS with 20% of our payroll dedicated to one player, as long as that player is a premier catcher. The similarity between us and the 2003 Marlins is the position that 20+% was directed. A catcher like Joe (and Pudge in his prime) can make both the starting staff and relievers more effective players in addition to shutting down the opponent's running game.

If we poured that 20% into a position other than catcher, I think it would be a mistake. Signing Matt Holiday, for example, would certainly have a positive impact (offensively, defensively, etc.) but he can't have the kind of direct impact on the contribution of other players that a catcher has.

What do you think?

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 10:17 AM by Margaret Thatcher Highlight this comment 229

Todd -

Looking at the national scene, the threat of a Vikings move has been overstated by the team for years. for one thing, there is nowhere for them to go that would be a real improvement over their current situation.

Los Angeles? until the new stadium is built, they just aren't a threat (and even then, the Rams and Jaguars have dibs on it)

Toronto? the Bills will be there by 2015 in all likelihood

Vancouver? BC Place is a CARBON copy of the Metrodome...

San Antonio? The Alamodome is no upgrade

Every other market is either 1) too small or 2) has an inadequate NFL facility

not to piss in your Cheerios, but the attitude of the legislature has been that Lester and the Vikings are crying wolf, and until a concrete plan is put forward that suggests they are actually going to move, and it has actual approval from the league... nobody is buying it after 10 years of bluster and hubris.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 10:23 AM by CJ Highlight this comment 230

OK, everybody take a deep, cleansing breath. Ahhhhhh.......

The Vikings are looking pretty clueless right now, as is the MSFC and the Legislature. They all need to take deep, cleansing breaths. Ahhhhhhh........

I don't think this is as hard as it looks right now. The MSFC tried to make it harder, and succeeded. You can say what you want about what the Vikings do or don't pay at the Metrodome, but tweaking them in the way they've just been tweaked is not moving toward a happy ending here. (Because their lease offer was so incredibly bone-headed, I do allow for the possibility that the whole thing was staged for the media. Could they really be that dumb? Well, yes. Could they really be that clever? Um, not likely, but you never know with politicians.)

The Legislature needs to deal with this issue. And there is only one possible resolution that will work for them: a new Vikings stadium somewhere in Minnesota. If they lose the Vikes, a lot of them will lose their jobs. (I would not be crying over that prospect, actually.)

The Vikings need to deal with this because the Metrodome is not a modern sports facility. Of course, they do make a lot of money there, but nowhere near as much as they could make with a new facility -- if only by virtue of the fact that it's new.

The MSFC recognizes that they are on the precipice of irrelevance and dissolution. Any new Vikings stadium deal will certainly do away with the Dome and them. Maybe they think they can lengthen their lives by bludgeoning the Vikings into staying in the facility for a couple more years. If that's the case, they are dreaming.

But there's opportunity here in the form of, say it all together, class: Economic Stimulus.

If a Vikings stadium is going to cost a billion dollars, that's money which has got to be paid to somebody. So all the Legislature needs to do is make sure that all the architects, suppliers, and contractors are Minnesota-based. Then all the money stays inside the state.

They have to tell the Vikings that they'll give them a site, all the infrastructure they can handle, a favored tax status, and the frame of a building. That's it.

Then the Vikings then have to agree to pay for all the finishing and any amenities which will make them the big bucks.

In a way, this would be akin to the Twins' agreement to pay for all cost overruns. That structure freed the Twins to upgrade when they felt it necessary, without having to negotiate it all up front. The Vikings would be free to spend as much as they want, knowing that the more they spend, the more they make.

Maybe they could get a better deal in LA (where a fresh stadium will be sitting and waiting for them), but I think this would be enough to keep them here.

The biggest problem with this is that some people will want to label this as "spending" instead of "stimulus". It's the same damn thing, of course, but what you call it makes a big difference in how it will be received. Who in Minnesota would not want to create four years of work for construction crews that would otherwise be sitting idle, some even collecting government benefits as a result?

The Vikes also need desperately to get rid of Bagley. He's got the bad mojo going that could be enough to kill any spark of a deal.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 10:26 AM by Rick 231

Margaret Thatcher,

My work brings me in close contact with MLB and Twins front offices... If you don't think they'll ask Joe for a discount, you're crazy. This team pocketed a $27 mil revenue sharing check last year, plus $2+ mil more in profits. Their focus is to put a good product on the field and turn profit. However, "winning it all" is not a priority. If it was, you'd see a $35-$40 mil bump in payroll this year...money doesn't always mean winning. But adding the likes of Halladay would obviously help.

I know this will come off as crazy rumor talk, but Theo and Mauer's camp have spoken in the past several months, and according to Epstein, he's committed Joe "Sabathia-like" money if he holds out for the open market. If you're Mauer, and you want to win, what organization gives you the best shot?

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 10:44 AM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 232

OG

But his agent is Ron Shapiro - a guy who values relationships and making the best situation possible for his clients

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:07 AM by CJ Highlight this comment 233

Agreed about Bagley. He needs to get the boot fast. He has a knack of making the situation much, much worse.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:10 AM by DeePee Highlight this comment 234

Rick, intriguing idea, but I don't think the Vikings would go for that in a second. They are stubborn as hell and Wilf seems completely out of touch with what is going on in this state and in this economy. Great deal for them, but I think he wouldn't take it because it would involve much more risk than what he wants.

As for the stimulus argument, that's one that's never worked for me. We could stimulate the economy just as well, if not moreso, by boosting funding for roads, bridges and infrastructure in this state. That would accomplish the same thing as a stadium when it comes to boosting the economy, but it would be much more long-lasting and benefit the state as a whole long-term.

I really think if Wilf is going to get a stadium the only kind of tax that will work is hotel and rental car taxes. Something that doesn't affect residents as much as visitors. Combine that with personal seat licenses and ticket taxes and other user fees and that's something we all could agree on.

I don't want gambling expanded because that, as study after study has shown, is just another regressive way to tax the public. The money ends up coming from the people who can afford it least. There is an argument to be made for personal responsibility and that gambling is already out there, but I think it's a poor choice for the government to look at it as easy money to fix their problems.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:11 AM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 235

Another note, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding and confusion about who and what the Metropolitan Sports and Facilities Commission is and does. They're not elected politicians garnering huge salaries. The idea that they want to keep this going to make money is laughable at best.

They are appointed by the Minneapolis City Council, except for the chair who is picked by the governor, and they don't receive any salary or retainer. They only make a per diem of $50 a day when attending official meetings or on commission business. So it's not like any of these people need the money that badly or are getting rich doing this.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:17 AM by Buffalo Highlight this comment 236

OG,

First, the scenario you describe (Joe and Theo's camps meeting) violates MLB's tampering rule, so IF anything happened I highly doubt it took place in the way you described. Do you have any other info that could clarify what/if anything happened?

Secondly, all I was saying is that I don't think the Twins will approach Joe and say, "Hey, we like you, but you gotta take a paycut if you want to stay here". In my opinion it would be foolish to do this. So I don't think they will ASK him for a hometown discount, though he may actually sign for less than he could get elsewhere.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:22 AM by Margaret Thatcher Highlight this comment 237

Thanks Rick for being understanding about the Vikings chat. Not trying to stir up trouble. I just know how many of us made the same argument for a new Twins stadium for years, so I'm surprised how many people on this board are against a new Vikings stadium.

CJ, statements like that are what is alarming. People think the Vikings are bluffing. Do you think Houston Oiler fans took the Tennessee threat seriously? Or the Browns fans - they never thought their team would leave. And the Rams - they were in the 2nd largest market and packed up for the midwest. You're right though, right now none of those markets have fancy new stadiums. But LA is waiting for a team to commit before work begins, and I don't doubt any of those other cities you mentioned would consider building a new stadium if the Vikings said they wanted to come. Actually, BC Place is already being overhauled for the olympics. I think the threat is real.

Turning back to the Twins, Chris Illes (their PR guy) told me they plan to move into their new offices at Target Field during MLB's Xmas/New Year's break. There days in the dome are numbered!

I know the Twins are cheap, but they're downright stupid if they think letting Joe Mauer go wouldn't lead to a revolt. I wish they would realize that winning a championship brings in more interest/fans. I have a friend who is a Phillies fan, and for years, he says their management did the same thing. Stay competitive, but don't go all out. Just make money. Then they made the World Series and won and the city went nuts. Instead of chanting EAGLES during games, fans actually watched. So what did Philly's management do? They went after big name players, in hopes of repeating - a feat they almost pulled off. It's worth it to spend Pohlad!!!

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:25 AM by TC 34 Highlight this comment 238

Buffalo,

Money is not the only motivator, especially for political appointees like the MSFC members (who ARE politicians, though not elected ones). But I think you have touched on a possible explanation for their actions, and that is the motivation of those who appointed them.

And you don't have to convince me that there are better ways to stimulate the economy than building a stadium (though you may have trouble convincing me that all this spending actually results in ANY measurable stimulus beyond what would have occurred naturally).

What I'm saying is that playing the "new stadium game" involves a healthy amount of framing. Dollars framed as "stimulus" are generally more palatable to a larger audience than those framed as "pork" or even simply "spending". It's all sh!t, but it doesn't quite stink as much if you call it "manure".

Imagine a press release announcing that the Legislature has created "a billion dollars worth of Minnesota jobs over the next four years." They'd be heroes!

(Don't tell me it's absurd. I KNOW it's absurd. Most of government is Theater of the Absurd. Pointing that out is what keeps Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert in business.)

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:37 AM by Rick 239

TC - I understand what you are saying, however the reason the folks at the Legislature believe they are bluffing is that they've worked with Lester Bagley for years, and understand his negotiating style.

Lester is inclined to be bombastic, he's inclined to overplay his hand, he's inclined to alienate (which is why T-Paw fired him as his spokesman)

Thing is, they've played the "well we could just move" card, they've played it a lot, and it's colored the attitudes of the legislators. I wouldn't worry about it nearly as much as Viking fans seem to be. the situation is just not that dire.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:42 AM by CJ Highlight this comment 240

Rick - excellent analysis... I think that's the pitch they'll use - which will get the states building trade unions excited, which can move the DFL members - there's going to need to be some GOP support though, because the farther left wing is adamant against it (putting it in Bloomington might be used to buy support from Ann Lenczewski, a pretty ardent foe of the Twins ballpark)

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:51 AM by CJ Highlight this comment 241

Thanks for the explanation of the MSFC Buffalo. I didn't know that and was about to ask.

After all the reading of people going back and forth about the Vikes situation I just want to point out Rick's analysis of the situation. That is why we trust Rick and his opinion so much. He carefully thinks out a response, backs up with well researched information and is willing to explain reasoning further. A well formulated post. Calling Politician A names based off personal opinion does not help any argument you make. Rick does take a shot or two but he accepts the outcomes and its more believable because the thorough research leads us to believe he actually knows that to be true.

You all make some valid points and bring about interesting concepts and ideas but if you would just take a second to think out your response a bit they would be taken with more validity. I think at the start it was pretty heated but i like the direction its going because people are arguing with more reason than emotion.

This post may get me ridiculed but I stand by it.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 12:49 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 242

I don't know that it is the DFL that is so adamantly against it. As far as I know the Dems are the only ones that have openly asked to talk about it so far.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 3:02 PM by moda253 Highlight this comment 243

Save the Vikings Website

http://www.savethevikes.org/

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 3:03 PM by Todd Highlight this comment 244

Moda,

There's bipartisan support and bipartisan opposition, just like there was for the Twins ballpark. I think the ballpark was the only issue in the history of the state of MN that John Marty and Phil Krinkie agreed on. You'll have some liberal loony Democrats that will be opposed to any/all funding with the typical "billions for billionaires" whine. At the same time, you'll have some Democrats who are strong supporters of labor who will be in favor of building the stadium. On the flipside you have the same with the Republicans in MN. You'll have the conservative nutjobs who are against paved roads and anything that might let a human being have fun (like gambling)...but then you have moderate Republicans (the few that still exist) who will be in favor of sustaining the economic benefit of having the NFL in the Twin Cities and how it attracts and maintains businesses and conventions/meetings, etc.

There, now that I've completely alienated the far wings of each party, have a nice day all...

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 3:23 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 245

kevin in az's first sentence matches exactly the one I wrote in response to moda! I'll let his comment do most of the talking.

If I were to add one thing it's that this is exactly the type of environment where a savvy vote-counter can step in and put together enough support from both sides at exactly the right moment. That's essentially what happened for the Twins (with Shane doing enough of the work to make it much easier on the legislators, who generally wish that issues like this would just go away, and are rarely willing to do that kind of hard work for something they don't care about deeply).

I've said it before: The Vikings need a Shane.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 3:33 PM by Rick 246

Thatch, I don't have a link or a writeup for you...obviously the media would have a hay-day if someone broke that sort of news. And since my job brings me in contact with those inside baseball, I'm not about to sell them out. Sorry my sources are anonymous, but I can confirm this much: The Sox are serious about paying big dollars to get Joe, if he'll wait.

True, Shapiro is a much more respected agent than others - he's no Scott Boras. He's also a master negotiator. I remember when he struck the deal to make Puckett the highest paid player in baseball...

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 3:39 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 247

rick -

shane's whip counts turned out to be more accurate than House leaderships... it was amazing work.

and yes - that's how this gets done... it's a struggle at the moment

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 3:45 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 248

SHANE WHERE ARE YOU???????????????????

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 3:46 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 249

Fair enough, OG. I can respect that! I'm not sure how what you're describing isn't tampering, but I understand if you just can't say any more.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 5:29 PM by Margaret Thatcher Highlight this comment 250

Regarding the question about 18500 season tickets - that is 18,500 FSE (full season equivalent) seats. An FSE is 81 (or 80) seats, so multiply the number of games x number of seats you have and divide by 80 and that's your FSE.

If you have a full season ticket plan (81 games) for one seat, that is 1 FSE. If you have a 40 game plan for a pair of tickets, that is 1 FSE, 4 seats in a 20 game plan, that is 1 FSE, etc.

If 18500 is the current number, that is remarkable, given recent history. Breaking 20K would be amazing.

(So, first rainy day in April when it looks like there are about 5000 people in the park and the attendance is announced as 19,000, you'll have all the season ticket holders to thank. (For official attendance, if a ticket is sold for a game, it counts as attendance, whether or not the ticket is used. Actual gate attendance is 10-15% less (sometimes more) and rarely announced by the team)

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 5:41 PM by jfh Highlight this comment 251

I really wish we would stick to Target Field on this thread. I know the Twins and Ballpark Authority are not giving us any new updates or pictures of the nearly complete ballpark so we have to talk about something.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 5:52 PM by NewGuy Highlight this comment 252

Just my two cents on the Vikings stadium: Maybe the Vikings should negotiate with the Twins to play their home games at TF. Wait a minute, oh hell, we've DONE THAT BEFORE! TWICE!
Just to appease NewGuy, I brought TF back into the mix...lol.

I'd love to say that if the Vikings win the hardware in Miami next year - just you wait and see how much easier it will get for the Vikings to get their new stadium. But the reality is, that's not necessarily the case. We built a hockey arena for a team who'd never played a game. An on-campus football stadium for a team who hasn't won a national title since 1960. And a ballpark for a team that hasn't won a championship since 1991. Winning teams don't get stadiums built around here.

So - what the hell, why not complete the foursome by building a football stadium for a team that's lost four Super Bowls? But, I wonder how much easier it will get, if we finally win a Super Bowl.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 6:10 PM by luke Highlight this comment 253

NewGuy,

Yes this blog is for a Twins ballpark but let's get something straght. First off, this is RICK'S blog, not mine, not yours. If he chooses to discuss TCFBS, so be it..If he chooses to discuss Vikings, so be it. If he chooses to discuss hemmrhoid cream, so be it. Secondly, most on here are Minnesotans and are fans of all or most of Minnesota's sports teams. This is a ballpark website and talking about a possible Vikings stadium, although not completely on topic, it is somewhat topical - it's about possible construction of another facility in our great state for our most beloved, cherished, team which we all have a love/hate relationship with. Some love to hate the Vikings, and there are doomed spirits like myself and Winona who hate loving these clowns, but we can't help it even though they rip our fucking hearts out every chance they can, but I digress...

It might not be your favorite subject, however, the Vikings are BY FAR the most popular team in MN - they may not be your most popular, but the are the most popular in MN.

Nothing bores me more than posts about ticket plans, seat locators, ticket exchanges...But there are many on here who are interested in those topics so I respectfully just skim through and don't pay attention instead of whining about the topic being discussed. I'm not just singling you out NewGuy, you're certainly not the first to complain about the Vikings topic popping up on here, but give others on here the same respect we give you when you post something that others might find uninteresting.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 7:00 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 254

I have no official position on the treatment of hemorrhoids.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 7:37 PM by Rick 255

Someday Rick, when you're older, you might very well have an official position on that topic and it will probably be quite a passionate view.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 8:11 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 256

Nicely stated, kevin in az. It's much easier to skip over a post you don't like than to bitch about it. Like all of the uniform talk to me...

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 8:25 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 257

Thanks a lot Kevin ... I've now got Diet Coke all over my laptop.

(That was funny!)

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 8:27 PM by jfh Highlight this comment 258

Kevin i agree with you that the Vikings need a new stadium,how they get to fund it is another question. The Vikings are a strong economical factor in the state and losing them would suck most of the life out of the Twin Cities and Minnesota. The legislators better figure something out this session or the Vikings could pack up and move.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 8:45 PM by NewGuy Highlight this comment 259

Zygi has stated time and again that he prefers the outdoor football experience from all of his years of being a passionate Giants fan(duh).So my question is why is he letting all of the political weanies tell him what to build. I know that old argument of only using the facility for 10 games a year thing-but why can't Wilf and his brothers just go with their gut-building an outdoor stadium would be perfectly fine and a better experience for the football fans.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 9:07 PM by Tom D. Highlight this comment 260

I'm with you Tom. How much revenue is really generated by hosting a few monster truck rallies and U2 concerts? Retractable roofs for football are stupid, and they will soon go out of style.

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 9:59 PM by DuluthTim Highlight this comment 261

and who's to say you couldn't have an outdoor monster truck show during the summer, or big concerts in the summer. regarding the Final Four, once the stadium holds this tournament one weekend, they won't put one in Minneapolis for a very long time after that. One NCAA tournament weekend can essentially be rolled in with the 10 or so games a year the Vikings play.

I agree with Tom and Duluth Tim. The Vikings should push for an outdoor stadium, and say "no thanks" to a domed stadium (retractable or otherwise). The money saved not putting on a roof can be put into other amenities, like a Jerry Jones-sized scoreboard!! :-)

Posted on November 24, 2009 at 11:13 PM by Dan Highlight this comment 262

That Jerry Jones scoreboard is hung from a roof. It would make it hard to put one in without it. As for the people who say an outdoor stadium makes it a better "fan experience," how many games do you go to? I think most fans who romanticize about outdoor football watch the games at home on their tv anyway. Maybe I'm a wuss, but as a Vikings season ticket holder, I'd rather go to games indoors. Then I could actually enjoy football, a dog, a a beer, instead of worrying about freezing my a@@ off in January.

As for the NCAA tournament, I think many of you are underestimating that. Sure, we would only get the final 4 every 7-10 years, but you could host the first 2 rounds, or the sweet 16 in between. That would almost make it a yearly thing. If you don't believe me, look at some of the sites. I swear, it's many of the same ones every year, just at different stages of the tournament. You could also host a b-ball tournament, like arizona and indy are trying. Get the badgers and gophers involved and some big name programs from around the country and it would draw big crowds. Plus, remember, the Vikings would only get gameday revenue, so the state could pay off the new stadium faster with more of these events (or we could dangle some of that money in front of Zygi in exchange for more money upfront!)

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 12:23 AM by TC 34 Highlight this comment 263

Kevin, thank you you just made my day.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 12:30 AM by autosave36 (aka Joe) Highlight this comment 264

I was being somewhat facetious about the scoreboard.:-) Even so, There could be a huge one on the end zone if it was a horseshoe-shaped stadium.

And you are correct, I hadn't thought of the other regional bracket games that could be held there. I minimize basketball out of habit anyway because I just don't care about basketball, so I admit a blind spot in that area.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 06:26 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 265

The Final Four does us well. Honestly, it's a little bit like the NHL Winter Classic - there's only a certain number of cities that can actually host it. The Final Four is strictly regulated to cities with DOMES. Ergo, Minneapolis is only 1 of 10 cities that can actually host the NCAA Final Four. The NCAA would never host the Final Four at Soldier Field.

Conversely, now we've put ourselves in the running for the Super Bowl of Hockey - the Winter Classic. Just as there are only select places (for the most part) that they bring the Super Bowl - there's only so many places they'll bring the Winter Classic. We have not one but two outdoor venues now, and we're cold enough for the thing - so bring it on! The NHL wouldn't host a Winter Classic in January in Miami.

So, sure, we'd only get events like the Final Four or the Super Bowl once in a blue moon, but at least we'd be eligible.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 06:55 AM by luke Highlight this comment 266

I believe the Twins will fall just short of 20,000 FSE before the start of the season, and breaking that mark will be function of getting Mauer signed, a good baseball start, and nice spring weather. If the Twins start off 25-15, sign Joe, and have several days in the 60s and 70s, I think the public will keep buying season tickets.

The great thing is that those 20K FSE equate to what, maybe 100K individual fans with season ticket rooting interests (between the 20 game and 40 game packages, and groups splitting full season seats). However, I get the sense that moving from a 12,000 FSE base in a 56,000 seat (for playoffs) stadium to a 20K FSE in a 42,000 seat stadium might put an end to some past practices for October baseball. I hope we have that problem.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 07:18 AM by Linc Highlight this comment 267

And, we can rest easy, the Vikings will NOT be moving to a "new" stadium in Pontiac, MI. According to the StarTrib this morning, the Silverdome was sold at auction to some Canadian company - for $583,000.

Whoppee. I wonder how much the Metrodome would get at auction.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 07:43 AM by luke Highlight this comment 268

When we get the Winter Classic, it better be at TF. Football stadiums are too big for hockey. I went to the Frozen Tundra game between Wisc and Ohio about 5 years ago at Lambeau and it was fun but couldn't see anything. It sucked.

We all sported our Golden Gopher gear even though we wern't playing. Wow, did we get shit. The nice thing was the Goph's kicked ass then, so we could talk all sorts of shit right back.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 07:57 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 269

Here are some pictures of Target Field from a recent tour courtesy of Phil Mackey. Click my name.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 08:05 AM by Jeff Highlight this comment 270

It appears Wilf has changed his mind, or perhaps just clarified his position on a retractable roof stadium.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 08:26 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 271

I still think this stadium, if it is built with no roof, HAS to be built to look like a long Ship. It would be unique, unlike any other football stadium. TB's just has a ship in the endzone, and you CAN'T mistake a pirate ship for a long ship.

And you need to name it Valhalla.

It would be interesting if someone had any mock-ups on what it could look like. Oh, the possibilities!

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 08:33 AM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 272

DreDogg, that would look great, and I like the Valhalla name. I am sure there would be corporate sponsor naming rights in the mix, but even so, "(Corporate Name) Field at Valhalla" still would sound pretty cool, I think.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 09:04 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 273

Kevin I completely agree. Democrats are like cats. Even if you round them all up they damn sure aren't all going to get along. I Just took exception with the DFL opposition as a whole statement.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 09:11 AM by moda253 Highlight this comment 274

Along with the stadium and the inevitable Vikings Hall OF Fame that would be attached, the could also include a Scandinavian History Museum as well.

Also, when it comes to NCAA Tourneys...The NCAA likes the Minneapolis locale. You don't have a major city in the North, west of the river, that can carry a Final 4, other than MPLS. STL/OKC/Omaha are all a lot farther south. While it may not matter for the actual Final 4, there is a benefit for the regional setups in the earlier rounds to be placed in MPLS.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 09:14 AM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 275

TC34-
I think you hit it right on the head. The NCAA Tournament is huge for revenue. However, that "7-10 yr" estimate would be Metrodome time. The NCAA "rewards" (for lack of a better term) the better, larger facilites, which the dome is not (better). As such, a new stadium would not only allow for increased frequency in NCAA tournament usage compared to past dome usage but even more because what you mentioned in that new venues are used every two rounds. Not to mention that the NCAA has been rediculously fawning over the raised floors the past few years. So places like Ford Field, the Alamodome and now Indy's Lucas Oil Stadium reap the benefits.

A new Viking's facility would not only ensure more first through fourth round games but would bring back the Final Four rounds to Minneapolis, which we haven't seen since when 2001, potentially more frequently because it would be that top tier facility the NCAA looks for. As a loyal Kansas Jayhawk fan, what i wouldn't give to have that increased opportunity to see them play here in a Tourney game as i was able to last year. My first tourney game and against NDSU. What a great game and great opportunity for NDSU. Too bad it had to be against KU.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 09:32 AM by Jared Highlight this comment 276

Oh, so Phil Mackey can get tours and post pics of the Twins stadium on his blog, but Rick can't?

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 11:39 AM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 277

Newguy ,

if you want to get the topic back to TF then you have to do what others do .. take your ass down to the site and snap some pics for us...alot of people bitch about what people are talking about on here and its not TF related but not to many post photos ... get to it! ill be waiting here i cant go down there anymore its like crack i cant help myself i would just sneek in and go to jail.

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 3:26 PM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 278

i was going to head down to the site today but my schedule didn't allow. i'll shoot for friday morning (it should be an easy day at the office)

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 4:11 PM by annoyingcustomer Highlight this comment 279

Well - Happy Thanksgiving all. Safe travels for those that are travelling. Don't eat too much now!

Posted on November 25, 2009 at 11:25 PM by luke Highlight this comment 280

Hey Kev,
I appreciated the mention in your post. If I really examine my feelings about the Vikes, I'd have to say you hit the nail on the head.

What was that old Joan Jett song? "I Hate Myself For Loving You."

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 12:39 AM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 281

only because someone else mentioned his name earlier did i want to say that phil mackey is a grade-a punk. i have met the guy and i am not exaggerating when i say that. actually, most of the turds over at that piece of crap "sports station" that calls itself KFAN are punks. KFAN is really nothing more than a bunch of smart-ass, know-it-alls who literally sit around all day enjoying the smell of their farts.

unfortunately, we do not have a TRUE sports station to listen to in minneapolis. one that will actually analyze and break-down the local teams, players and coaches in a fair and professional manner. kfan is NOT a sports station folks. it is just a bunch of sophmoric, blow-hards who got bounced from their previous gigs (i.e. barrerio got bounced from the mpls star tribune, dan cole used to do stand-up comedy, etc., etc., etc.). go to any other major media market (which minneapolis is) and you will see that minneapolis unfortunately gets to enjoy some of the worst sports radio (KFAN) in the country.

d-bag dan barrerio is the worst on-air talent in minneapolis. a true hack is barrerio. his clueless, little iowa hogeye sidekick (justin gaard) is just as bad as him. their is nothing worthwhile spewing from either of those pie-holes between the hours of 3-6pm, monday-friday.

:-)

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 01:23 AM by Betaband Highlight this comment 282

Wow! Thanksgiving wasn't even two hours old, and it appears we've already cast aside the spirits of cherity, kindness, and mercy.

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 07:26 AM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 283

Woops! "Charity."

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 07:27 AM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 284

Happy thanksgiving!

Eat some turkey bitchies!

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 10:57 AM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 285

winona mike - i generally save those "spirits" for christmas. thanksgiving is still open-season, as far as i am concerned.

happy thanksgiving!

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 11:07 AM by Betaband Highlight this comment 286

Beta-

You're gonna turn into a grumpy, dirty old man like me....LOL!!!

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 1:26 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 287

Beta's right. Most of the time if I want intelligent sports talk I turn to 690.

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 4:12 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 288

690 Rules... Nothing like The DP Show and Romey in the mornings!! La Velle E. Neal the III and occasionally Mark Rosen are the only reasons I can think of to listen to 1130.

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 7:33 PM by NotMendoza Highlight this comment 289

Sports, sports, sports. Is your whole life sports?

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 9:27 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 290

I always loved that one

Posted on November 26, 2009 at 10:46 PM by Intern Gal Highlight this comment 291

wtf?

Posted on December 15, 2009 at 8:48 PM by LUKE, I AM YOUR FATH Highlight this comment 292

common man rules!

Posted on December 25, 2009 at 12:15 AM by LUKE, I AM YOUR FATH Highlight this comment 293

wtf?

Posted on June 7, 2010 at 7:03 PM by bulldog Highlight this comment 294

I don't have a problem with the obstructed views. (And it should also be noted that obstructions are less problematic when standing (as usually is the case on an exciting play) and even if the outfield corner gorund is obstructed, that doesn't mean you can't see the outfielder running to catch/field the ball, and as long as that can be seen, I think it's fine. You can't expect to see the ball rolling on the ground in the corner.)

What I find strange is the pricing. The LF bleacher seats, some of the best in the house IMO, and definitely the best view of the playing field in the outfield, are the 2nd-cheapest outfield seats! The deck above is $5 MORE, and even the third deck is $1 more than the first deck. How the heck did they come up with that pricing?

Posted on September 22, 2010 at 01:04 AM by C.A. Highlight this comment 295

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"You talk about the magic, the aura, but what really makes a stadium is the fans. Concrete doesn't talk back to you. Chairs don't talk back to you. It's the people who are there, day in, day out, that makes the place magic."

– Bernie Williams

Explore the Site

Here are 50 images chosen randomly from the 3042 found on this site. Click the image to be taken to the original post. A new list is created every 10 minutes.


573 Club















Looking across the plaza toward the main ticket area.



I will take a picture of just about anything.















Two concepts here remain in the final design. First is the oddly-shaped pavilion in center. Second is the section just above the right field fence. In the current design this section will hang over the field by a few feet. The original doesn't do that, but you can see that the concept goes way back in the planning.



Three weeks ago this was a patch of scruffy trees. Now it's a patio. In case you were wondering, that's where I've been...



The Overlook, as seen by outfielders



Steel going up fast.









Double plays will be turned here.









Just, wow.



Lots of pix waiting to be seen from Bert's memorable night.



Branding on the plaza









Which way to the skyway? Really??



Puckett atrium menu part 2 (Those prices match elsewhere in the ballpark.)



That's part of the wind veil, waiting in the B ramp for installation






Ballpark elevation viewed from the promenade (HERC plant) side. (Click to enlarge.)



Town Ball Tavern balcony



Now, why is there horse shit on the street next to Target Field? (I saw it in two places. Mounted police maybe?)



This is amazingly close to completed. It's a short tunnel entrance ramp to 394 underneath the outfield stands.



The HERC promenade side.












The Polo Grounds (left) and Shibe Park (Connie Mack Stadium)









Also from the same lobby, other window, a view which will clearly disappear before too long...



Looking south (toward Seventh Street).



Chef stand and menu in the Carew atrium



For those who have never seen it up close, that's what it looks like when steam comes out of the HERC plant.



The service entrance area in left-center, now with bench seating






Guthrie Theater (original design colors)



Fan number 3,030,673 came through this gate a few moments after I took this picture.






I could gaze at this streetscape all day. It isn't perfect, but as a model for Minneapolis, I love it. (Except the Biff, of course. Click to enlarge.)


Glossary

BPM - Ballpark Magic

BRT - Bus Rapid Transit

DSP - Dave St. Peter

FSE - Full Season Equivalent

FYS - Fake Yankee Stadium (see also: NYS)

HERC - Hennepin Energy Resource Company (aka the Garbage Burner)

HPB - Home Plate Box

HRP - Home Run Porch

LC - Legends Club

LRT - Light Rail Transit

MBA - Minnesota Ballpark Authority (will own Target Field)

MOA - Mall of America

MSFC - Minnesota Sports Facilities Commission (owns the Metrodome)

NYS - New Yankee Stadium

SRO - Standing Room Only

STH - Season Ticket Holder

TCFBS - TCF Bank Stadium

TF - Target Field

Selected Bibliography - Analysis
 


(1993)
 


First Edition (1992)
 


Second Edition (2006)
 


(2008)
 

Selected Bibliography - Surveys
 


(1975)
 


Second Edition (1987)
 


Not a "Third Edition" exactly,
but it replaced the above title
(2000)
 


(2000, large coffee table)
 


Original edition (2000, round)
 


Revised edition (2006, round)
 


(2001, medium coffee table)
 


(2002, small coffee table)
 


(2003, medium coffee table)
 


(2004, very large coffee table)
 


(2006, very large coffee table)
 


Combines the previous two titles
(2007, medium coffee table)
 

Selected Bibliography - Nostalgia
 


(1992)
 


Book and six ballpark miniatures
(2004)
 

Complete Bibliography

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