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Plaza Particulars (Part 1)

March 7, 2009 2:31 AM

Getting back to the plaza design for a bit, here is some additional detail on the player/fan appreciation wall. First, this from the renderings which were released with the unveiling:

fanplayer1.jpg

From the overview, this shows the entire wall from behind -- freeway directly below.


fanplayer2.jpg

Up close, this is what you'll see as you walk along.

Next, here is a front elevation of the concept plan:

pic06325a.jpg

Concept drawing for the fan/player appreciation wall. (Click to enlarge.)

Along the same wall area will be pennants -- one for each year -- containing the complete roster for the team. Presumably these pennants will begin in 1961.

pic24048a.jpg

Team pennant. (Click to enlarge.)

Combining the information from these views, it looks like there will be eight 300-name boards, and lots and lots of room for pennants. This fencing goes all around the plaza, providing protection from falling to your doom in traffic below.

The quotes across the top are a great touch, and the whole thing is a great idea, though I can imagine that some fans will wish they could just "buy a brick" somewhere. They should be thankful that the process has been classed up a little bit.

Ticket Lament

Like many of you, I spent some quality time last week in the "virtual waiting room" at the Cubs online ticket office. Unlike some of you, I never even got to sniff around for spare seats. I just plain never got through.

A quick check back later confirmed that almost everything had been completely cleaned out. About that time reports started surfacing that most of these tickets were now for sale at nearly twice the face value on one of the ticket "broker" web sites.

This set me to thinking a little bit about the economics at play here and the role that these rules must play in the Twins' decision-making regarding ticket prices at Target Field.

See if you agree with the following:

1. The true value of a ticket is whatever someone will pay for it.

2. If a ticket can be acquired at below its true value, it can be resold at a profit.

3. Conversely, if a ticket can be sold for a profit, it was originally purchased somewhere below its true value.

4. Selling tickets at below their true value leaves money on the table.

Therefore...

5. Teams should, in order to capture the maximum revenue, immediately raise their prices to something approximating the levels at which tickets are selling on the secondary market.

It's really pretty simple supply and demand stuff, but the implications for getting a cheap seat to a Major League baseball game are somewhat dire -- especially in a 40,000 seat venue.

There are certainly some downward pressures on prices. For example, the price increases which would be needed to match the secondary market would immediately cause a backlash among the fan base. That backlash might not result in less tickets being sold, but it certainly could result in less interest for TV and radio broadcasts of the games. There's nothing like a sense of elitism to turn off the population as a whole.

There is also the risk that tickets which seem valuable now will not be nearly so valuable by the time the game is actually played. If the Cubs start stinking up Wrigley again, prices will tumble and the brokers will be left holding the proverbial bag.

Also, in the case of the Twins, there was a commitment made to keeping at least some seats cheap so that anyone can get in.

That's a laudable goal, but if the market will bear, for example, a doubling of those cheap prices, then the scalpers -- er, ticker brokers -- will snap them up as fast as they can and get them resold at a market rate. Simple economics.

The truth is that demand will be setting the actual prices at Target Field for the first few years. Oh sure, you may get lucky and get through to buy some tickets at face value on the web site -- surely not every ticket is being bought by a broker or his agent, right?

But the chances are greater that anyone wanting a seat in the new ballpark for the first couple of years may be forced into the secondary market, where the team's decisions on pricing have no sway.

It's food for thought.

Comments


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I like the pennant idea. Gives a good taste of the history of the Twins.

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 03:54 AM by Robert Highlight this comment 1

That's why I think we've seen some pro teams try to withhold tickets for a secondary market where they'll get a cut of the mark-up as a broker or other 3rd party manages the re-sale.

It protects their brand so long as it isn't obvious that the team is doing this.

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 08:42 AM by MC Highlight this comment 2

i like those ideas as well. still thinking about the secondary ticket sales though...

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 08:56 AM by luke Highlight this comment 3

I don't like the location of those pennants. They need to be inside the ballpark, not on a wall, outside of it.

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 12:43 PM by Ruffle Highlight this comment 4

I sure the pennants will be in te stadium too. these are an upclose and detailed veiw

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 12:56 PM by Tony Highlight this comment 5

Rick, I know what you mean with the "Virtual Waiting Room"...did it for the Cubs last month (I live in Chicago) and also did it for Twins tickets today...signed in right at noon to buy my tix to the final Twins game in the Metrodome!!!

"Best available" put me all the way out in the homerun porch, but I don't care...I'll be there!! Can't wait.

Anyone else buy tix for the final game today?

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 1:11 PM by Excited Highlight this comment 6

Excited,

Sure did. Took me about 40 minutes before I got through. I don't have much familiarity with buying Twins tickets online so I was frustrated as all get out when every click told me there wasn't anything available. Then add on top of that I was being timed too. I swear my blood pressure went up 20 points. I was able to find/settle on sect 102. I also got tickets for Saturday's game too in sect 134. Equivalently, those will be far better seats in TF than they are in the Dome.

I can't remember the date of the first time I saw the Twins in the Dome but I'll certainly remember the last.

About the pennants, do you think they'll still include Ron Davis?

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 5:14 PM by chuck in ak Highlight this comment 7

I just got my season tickets today!!! i love it the season is around the corner, i smelled all the tickets i think this year is a winner!

I waited 30 mins in the STL cards virtual waiting room yesterday @ 9am to get twins tickets for this summer... and i lucked out and got redbird club seats i cant belive how much they charge for a ticket in stl and us cellular...the cheapest seat is a nose bleed bleecher seat for like 19.50

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 5:45 PM by mazaratirick Highlight this comment 8

I heard a radio commercial saying new ballpark tix go on sale in May. Rick, do you know any more details about this?

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 8:56 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 9

Hey, great site. I found you through Facebook. I wonder if the Twins will do standing room only seats like the Cubs do? Any information on that?

Posted on March 7, 2009 at 11:26 PM by JC Highlight this comment 10

a few pics i took a couple days ago

Posted on March 8, 2009 at 2:25 PM by Erik Highlight this comment 11

Nice pics Erik. Thank you.

It's pretty cool that we'll be able to see limestone on webcam 2 very soon.

Love the darker, multi-colored brick behind the left field seats.

Posted on March 8, 2009 at 2:38 PM by Lafferty Highlight this comment 12

Jeff,

You must have been mistaken. Phase 1 seat selection for existing season ticket holder's begin in May, and should run through approximately July. Then in September and October Phase 2 goes which would include people who buy balance of season 2009 tickets and cheap seat accounts from 2007-2009 who aren't supposed to have any priority. And then last would be new season tickets for 2010. Final payment is due by December, and then I would imagine they would have single game tickets go on sale at Twins fest as everyone should have their seats selected by then, assuming they have season ticket holder's single game presale in Early January.

Posted on March 8, 2009 at 7:06 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 13

they didnt have single game ticket sales at Twins Fest this year. they bolstered their date up to March 7, apparently to be in line with the other MLB clubs. cant imagine they'd do it next year.

Posted on March 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM by luke Highlight this comment 14

Anyone know how fast Liriano is throwing?

Posted on March 8, 2009 at 11:50 PM by 392 Days Highlight this comment 15

Maybe it's just me, but I have no sentimental feeling for the ol' Metrodome at all and have no real desire to go to the last game there (unless it's a playoff game!).

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 09:34 AM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 16

I also had to wait in the "waiting room" Cardinals vs. Twins tickets. My originally $17 tix went up to 21 because it must be a premium game, then they charged another $4 per ticket for a convenience fee, I don't see any convenience in that, and then they charged me another $4 for a processing fee. To top it all off, we're in the last row in the upper deck. Oh well, at least it will get me excited to actually see a Twins home game outside.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 09:58 AM by crtwinsfan Highlight this comment 17

I actually had good luck in the St. Louis waiting room, more luck than in the Cubs waiting room. The waiting room at the Dr.'s office sucks the most though.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 10:18 AM by Steeks Highlight this comment 18

The new Season Ticket commercial is just too true and too funny!

Clicky, Clicky

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 11:09 AM by Andrew Highlight this comment 19

I know the dome stinks, and I can't wait for the new stadium. But I'm from the Metrodome generation--I was born the year the dome was built. I won't miss it, but I may have a single tear for the old HHH. I will look on it with fond memories.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 11:55 AM by DuluthTim Highlight this comment 20

I have no desire to be at the last dome game. My fondest memory was its early collapse. I will, however, be at the first football game at TCF.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 1:00 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 21

Understood. But I grew up at Met Stadium (I am 49) and left the state for several years while they built the dome and razed the Met. I watched both World Series from Cincinnati but have never connected with the Dome. I would probably feel differently if I was here during either world championship run. I know Cincy was a blast when they won it in 1990.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 1:03 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 22

I can't wait till they raze the dome - It will be a fine day in MN...hopefully they do the Star Trib at the same time. The last game in the dome will be interesting in that you'll have a lot of codgers who don't like the idea of being outside who will want to say they were there.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 1:20 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 23

I just fear what sort of impact a razed Dome has on the Gopher baseball team, and other colleges in the area? We are lucky to see some ball in March thanks to the Dome.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 1:57 PM by Steeks Highlight this comment 24

Target Field will be a gem, no question. Every time I see baseball outdoors I see what we are missing. But you can't deny that there have been some great memories in the dome. Kirby against the plexiglass. Ortiz's towering home run (with the Red Sox) turned single because of the speaker. Hunter's awesome catches against the stretched plastic in center. I went to a lot of rockies games at Coor's field between 2001 and 2005. The stadium was beautiful but the team was terrible. I would rather see a great team in a lousy stadium (the Twins) than a lousy team in a great stadium. TF will be beautiful. The only way it will be great is if the twins are great (or at least good, and fun to watch)

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 1:58 PM by DuluthTim Highlight this comment 25

I really like the idea of the pennants, but I hope and pray that they go with a different color scheme. The white and shiny silver looks like a cheap wedding decoration to me. It would be somewhat difficult to keep them looking crisp and clean being outside in the elements, wouldn't it?

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 4:16 PM by Jeff Highlight this comment 26

So I've just returned home from the Indians/White Sox spring training game. As I sat next to an empty seat for the first 2 innings, a young man sporting a Joe Mauer jersey and Twins cap sat down next to me. Being the chatty old fart that I am I asked what a Twins fan is doing at an Indians/Sox game. "Checking out our competition" he said. We had a nice chat about our favorite team, he and his wife were on spring break in AZ visiting her folks. Our conversation turned to Target Field and this bright-eyed young man said he's never seen a Twins game outdoors and was very excited to do so. You can just imagine the warm fuzzy feeling I had in my heart to hear a young Twins fan say such a thing. And then it happened. Like all good things - it came to an end. He blurted out, "I can't believe they're not going to build a retractable roof on the ballpark." I was very thankful that I had taken my lisinopril this morning because my blood pressure jumped about 20 points.

Conveniently there was an Indians fan sitting below us, hearing our entire conversation. He couldn't have been much older than the Twins fan next to me. He turned around and asked the kid, "Do you remember how the Tribe had to relocate their home games to Milwaukee for the first week of the season due to snow?" We both nodded. "Well, NOBODY in Cleveland said the Jake needs a roof and the Twins don't either."

This young generation of Minnesotans just doesn't know any better. They've been raised with indoor baseball/football. We're going to hear this garbage from now until about year 5 of Target Field when these kids realize that outdoor baseball won't kill you. It's time for young Minnesotans to GROW A PAIR! You're the same people who wait for the bus/train in subzero weather. You're the same people who refuse to turn on the A/C when it's 90 degrees and humid. Surely you can deal with outdoor baseball.

By the end of the game, the young man was convinced the Twins made the right decision by leaving the roof off.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 6:25 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 27

Nice story Kevin. Completely agree that it's frustrating to hear fans talk about adding a roof.

Just curious, did you happen to see the White Sox prospects' Gordon Beckham or Dayan Viciedo while you were at the game? If so, do you have a scouting report?

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 7:06 PM by Lafferty Highlight this comment 28

Kevin in az, please do not generalize all young Minnesotans. As a young Minnesotan myself, I actually would like to see the dome go and wouldn't mind seeing an outdoor game without a roof. I find it irritating that people still bring up the issue, but it's also extremely irritating to be stereotyped as well.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 7:23 PM by Jervill Highlight this comment 29

Beckham didn't play, Viciedo got one hit and struck out twice as the DH. Johnny Danks was awful, he gave up 8 hits, 6 runs (5 earned) in 2 innings...Hope that continues!!

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 7:26 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 30

Jervill...it is what it is and your generation is full of whiners!

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 7:28 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 31

that was a good story Kev.
just for the record, both Chicagos, both New Yorks, Boston, Detroit, KC, Saint Louis, Cleveland...they have just as crazy weather as we do, and they do just fine without a roof.
bring on the doubleheaders!

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 7:52 PM by luke Highlight this comment 32

I'm from the young generation and I absolutely despise the Metrodome. Other then 2 World Series Championships, it has ruined Minnesota sports. I'm so pissed off I will never see the Vikings play home games in the cold. I think the cold works to our advantage, I always hear stories that the LA Rams hated playing up here in the cold, its a shame I will never see that. Thank God for Target Field, at least half my dream came true, 2010 can't come soon enough.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 8:07 PM by Matt Highlight this comment 33

I'm 25 years old and have been seeing games in the dome since '86. I cannot wait to go to a game in 40 degree drizzle or to get majorly sunburnt in the cheap seats. BRING IT ON!!

(I will admit it might be a little nostalgic this year in the dome with all the great and not so great memories; but it's nothing more than that).

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 8:18 PM by Justin Highlight this comment 34

Hearing you younger Minnesotans gives me some hope. Please start educating your compadres who fear that playing sports in the elements will somehow harm them. I'm sure there's a chance a ball player could be struk my lightning, but I think those odds are less than a player blowing out his knee on the artificial turf.

And Matt, you're correct about the Rams hating games at the Met in December. The Rams had some awesome teams and they always said, oh just wait til we play the Vikings in LA, we'll smoke em'. The Rams had their chance in '77 and the Vikings brought MN weather with them. It was the mud bowl and the Vikings won...AGAIN! The Vikings died in 1981 when they departed the Met and Mike Lynn took over. What we've witnessed since then is a group of pathetic purple pansies from the top down. As a long-time Vikings fan, I've concluded that this franchise is diseased and the Metrodome has been further poison. The Vikes had a natural home-field advantage thanks to mother nature and they went away from it. Just ask Roman Gabriel or Pat Hayden if the Vikings nov-dec advantage at the met was bigger than the so-called noise advantage at the dome. Chris Chandler had no problem with the noise in '98.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 9:45 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 35

as for the comment on the effect the eventual end of the dome would have on college baseball... i went to school in fargo... and NDSU baseball just has a long spring road trip... and then plays a TON of home games in late April-May. Works out great on those first few weeks of summer sitting outside at Newman Outdoor watching some *ting*

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 9:56 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 36

Kevin in AZ, you are a butt. Someone says that they want a roof and knowing full well that that will never happen you still get upset. People have preferences. In your words, "it is what it is." Your little story just sounds like an angry rant. I didn't want the roof either, but I'm not gonna freak if someone simply says that they wish there was one.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 9:59 PM by Robot Highlight this comment 37

If Kevin is the butt, then Robot must be the bleeding hemorrhoid that won't go away.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 10:11 PM by Preparation H Highlight this comment 38

Robot, you're an idiot.

Steeks, I am not at all educated on the Gopher Baseball team. I must admit that while I lived there for many years, I never paid much attention to them. What did the Gophers do before the Metrodome? I know Dick Siebert coached the team to 3 national titles in the 50s-60s. I don't think they played anywhere indoors at the time. I know Bierman Field (now Siebert Field) opened in 1971, 11 years before the dome did. What did the Gophers do back then and how did they survive? Perhaps whatever they did back then, they could do now but I have no idea what that was. Anyone have knowledge on this subject?

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 10:23 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 39

Kevin in AZ
I'm from the younger generation. Did we ask for a domed stadium?? No. But we made good memories with what we had. If we are going to start a generational war (kids vs adults or something stupid like that) remember who petitioned to have the dome built. YOUR generation. The dome was a useful structure for many years. TF will be better. Don't be a hater!

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 11:01 PM by DuluthTim Highlight this comment 40

and don't give me this "I weep for the future" rhetoric either. We're going to be supporting you in your old age, so let us have our opinions!

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 11:03 PM by DuluthTim Highlight this comment 41

They have played at Siebert Field, but now they only play one or two double-headers there per year. The field is fine, the location is great, but apparently the locker rooms are dank and disgusting, and the whole grandstand will soon topple over. They need a new stadium. They are currently in a 'quiet fund raising campaign,' asking boosters and alumni to donate before they go for a public push.

College baseball at the dome is great. There are games going on 24/7 right now. Just check out the MSFC website. It'll be a shame to lose that. But for the record, a (mythical) new indoor Vikings stadium would be convertible to baseball.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 11:07 PM by Abe Frohman Highlight this comment 42

I was talking with Sid Hartman the other day. I can't believe all old people want a roof! I just don't understand that generation.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 11:13 PM by Elston Gunnn Highlight this comment 43

I go to Astros games frequently because at least it resembles major league baseball and it's all we have got. I have to say that I absolutely HATE minute maid park. It's like watching baseball in an airport hanger and even when it's open 5 times a year it still feels closed. I don't care if it's 100 degrees I still wanna watch outside. I believe that the trend of retractable roofs is going to get old and these parks will die off. I give it 10 years and Houstonians will want a new park as will Seattle and Arizona. If there's going to be one of these I think Tampa had it right with their proposal(click name).

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 11:16 PM by Eric in TX Highlight this comment 44

Maybe the Gophers should rebuild Siebert Field with a retractable roof? You know, for the younger generation? Build a casino next door to pay for it.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 11:20 PM by Sarcastic Guy Highlight this comment 45

Yes Eric I agree for the most part....Phoenix and Houston built ballparks inside of shoe boxes. I'm not sure I'd put Seattle in the same category. Having been to Safeco a few times, it really feels like an outdoor park when the lid is off. You don't get that outdoor feeling in AZ, Milwaukee, Houston or Toronto.

Posted on March 9, 2009 at 11:49 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 46

i agree with kevin on seattle and houston/az/milwaukee too.

houston to me is the biggest example of a modern park that is going to age poorly. it is a testament to the fatal flaw in "quirky by design" thinking.

the insanely short porch in left - the damn train above that - the gas pump porch in the left/center gap - tal's hill and the flagpole in center... too much novelty for one park.

Posted on March 10, 2009 at 03:26 AM by CJ Highlight this comment 47

The difference with Seattle is that the roof covers the park, but does not enclose it. The park is protected from rain, but not climate controlled. This makes for a much better design, as you don't have to close it in as much.

Posted on March 10, 2009 at 09:33 AM by DuluthTim Highlight this comment 48

Miller Park has the same feel, I went to a game a couple years ago and the roof was open but I did not feel like I was outside. It still had that sterile indoors feel to it. I am 24 years old and couldn't be happier that Target Field is being built without a roof. Now if we could do something about a tailgating lot nearby...

Posted on March 10, 2009 at 10:45 AM by Robert Highlight this comment 49


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Explore the Site

Here are 50 images chosen randomly from the 3045 found on this site. Click the image to be taken to the original post. A new list is created every 10 minutes.


A seating bowl comes into focus. Note that the netting has been installed on the foul pole. (Field Box)



That is pretty close... (Grandstand)






The splendid view from the roof of the Minikahda building. (Click to enlarge greatly.)






Storage tracks in the foreground.









Showing more of the context for the louvers.



Checking out the bike racks on the promenade.



Wrigley Field. Paradise? Not from these seats.






The green in question (click for very large version)



I have no idea what this is or does, but as gear goes, it's totally boss, man. (Attached to a railing just off of the Trap)



Banners on the parking ramp are a great touch. They help manage scale and turn a lemon into lemonade. On my way there today I passed the WCCO building and remembered how the Twins schedule used to be painted in giant form on the side of that building (which is no longer visible). Wouldn't that be a great thing to resurrect on the side of that ramp? A giant Twins schedule. I always thought that was cool.






The view from section 210



Saints between innings



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The walkway under construction in the parking lot just outside the loading dock.



New Downtown Minneapolis Public Library (Source: RP)









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At the other end of the bridge, the configuration of the tracks has become clear.






Believe it or not, the actual outfield wall will be about where this fence is now!



They help create a psychological safe area along the plaza edge, and help you forget that cars are zipping by directly beneath you.






From the B ramp, 6th level elevator lobby window












Site plan for the new Nationals ballpark, with the size of the Rapid Park site overlaid






Concept drawing of Coomer gate (click to enlarge)



The green in question (click for very large version)









Discussions in progress on some very brown grass...



OK, just how many servings per container?






An early concept drawing for the site



Ballpark elevation viewed from the promenade (HERC plant) side. (Click to enlarge.)












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Glossary

BPM - Ballpark Magic

BRT - Bus Rapid Transit

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HPB - Home Plate Box

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LC - Legends Club

LRT - Light Rail Transit

MBA - Minnesota Ballpark Authority (will own Target Field)

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