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So Long, Tiger Stadium

October 11, 2008 2:21 AM

Here are a couple of quick things I discovered today. The first is simultaneously one of the coolest and one of the saddest things I've seen in a long time. It's a video of the Tiger Stadium demolition in progress (it's now complete but for the dugout-to-dugout section which preservationists have managed to temporarily save) as shot from a remote control airplane:

Here's the link just in case you want to look at any of the related videos, which are mostly additional shots (from the ground) of the demolition.

Seeing this type of thing is always painful, especially for Tigers fans of course. I suppose there are those out there who do not realize that losing Tiger Stadium is pretty much like losing Wrigley or Fenway (which, by coincidence, opened on the same day in 1912). There simply should be gnashing of teeth over this.

I dig Comerica Park, but seeing these images certainly begs the question of whether Tiger Stadium could/should have been saved.

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, and it could have been everything Comerica Park is (except in downtown) for about the same amount of money.

But Detroit is one seriously F'd up city. If you ever decide to go, be sure to tour the miles of burned out buildings from a riot that happened some 40 years ago. Oh wait -- you can't help it. They're right on your way out of downtown. And be sure to notice the classic -- and completely vacant -- skyscrapers. You can't really tell it on TV, but Detroit is a pretty sad place to visit (I had family there until a couple of years ago).

Elevate Me

On to something more fun. Here's a new elevation of the Fifth Street facade for the ballpark which was tucked into the call for public art proposals issued by the Ballpark Authority (click to enlarge):


The art will be placed in recessed panels on this facade, and also in the oval-shaped portion of the administration building, which is actually the connection between the ballpark and the Northstar platform.

If you apply (or know of someone who does), send me your images. I'd love to see what types of ideas are out there.

Render Me

Finally for today, here are a couple of renderings that I pulled out of the relocation guide PDF sent out by the team. These were actually backgrounds, but they are interesting in their own right (click either to enlarge):



No explanation is offered for why there are a whole lot of virtual people out in the center field concourse -- and nowhere else!


The whole 3D rendering (from which these images probably were captured) must be something to behold. The seat locator on the Twins web site is a bit disappointing because you can't go 360 degrees like the New Yankee Stadium seat locator which, I hate to admit, is a whole lot cooler, even though their stadium itself will not be.

Also, as you pan from left to right, you get into this sort of "Batman villain's lair" mode (60s series, of course -- what Batman were you thinking of?) where everything is at a weird angle.

Wouldn't it be great if there were a complete 3D model of the new ballpark -- concourses, restaurants, suites, press box -- for all the fans to explore? (I bet such a thing exists...)


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Just curious - Is anyone able to get the seat locator to show the seats below the trapazoid seats in right center? All i can get it to display is the handicap seats in the front of the trapazoid area...

Thanks, Moose

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 08:40 AM by Moose97 Highlight this comment 1


Just consult the seating chart and type in the actual section number you want. In that way you can see any section in the park -- even if it's hard (or impossible) to click on in the diagram.

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 10:36 AM by Rick 2

As aformentioned i am just dissapointet taht the 3D seat locator doas not have 360 degree view, and that it does not have 3D views of the suites, restaurants, concourses, and the other interior features. Because without the interior renderings we will not be able to get the feel of the ballpark as if we were there.

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 10:44 AM by NewGuy Highlight this comment 3


Click on the "MAIN LEVEL" tab at the top. This takes away the trapezoid section and you'll be able to click on the tiny sections which lay beneath.

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 11:21 AM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 4

As far as the Tiger Stadium they may as well tear down the whole thing since the structure was falling apart before the demolition anyway. So i do not understand why there are people who wat to preserve a decrepid structure that is probably an eyesore in the neighborhood.

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 11:50 AM by NewGuy Highlight this comment 5

You've obviously never been there! The so-called "neghborhood" is mostly a bunch of vacant lots and abandoned buildings! I can assure you that Tiger Stadium was not an eyesore. It was the proverbial marshmallow in a giant cow patty!

Nor was it falling down. Much like the fate of Met Stadium, the team owner decided he wanted a new ballpark downtown, then more or less stopped doing maintenance. Any ballpark will start to fall apart if it's not maintained -- especially one in its 8th decade of service.

It's a moot point now, of course. In fact, I wonder if restoring part of it will actually be the tourist draw they imagine. With planning and effort (something Detroit leaders seem short on) it might be the spark to reignite the neighborhood.

More likely, it would become just another weird oasis in the urban ruin that is Detroit.

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 12:08 PM by Rick 6

First off - thanks for helping on the seat locator question...

Second, for those that may have never been to Detroit, click on my name - it's a site called the "Fabulous Ruins of Detroit," and I'll tell you what - there is nothing like the Motor City anywhere else in North America. It is truely amazing. I've heard it said elsewhere - saving a ballpark is the least of their worries in that town...


Posted on October 11, 2008 at 3:54 PM by Moose97 Highlight this comment 7

In the Batman 60's TV series, everytime they showed the bad guys in their hideout, the camera angle was crooked. Because they were the crooks !!!

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 6:09 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 8

Do I see that the second cam is up and running or am I dreaming.

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 8:51 PM by Leroy Highlight this comment 9

After watching a few games on TV from Tropicana Field the last week or so, I've come to the conclusion that it is a much more interesting dome stadium then the Metrodome. I realize it's like comparing to piles of poop, but I like the fact that there is a mezzinine level and there are some interesting areas where they have squeezed in seating. In contrast, the Metrodome is just a bland two level bowl with only the seats in right retracted for baseball. The most unique seats at the Metrodome, and ones I like to sit in, are the 3 row section in right center field. Wow, just witnessed the Red Sox hit 3 solo homers in the 5ht inning to take a 6-5 lead. GO RED SOX !!

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 9:05 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 10

Another point about Tropican Field. The seats are field level around the infield.

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 9:19 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 11

I think its because tropicana field doesn't host a football team like the metrodome does. Also FUCK the red sox.. lets go Rays.

Posted on October 11, 2008 at 9:56 PM by Matt Highlight this comment 12

JohnF: Don't ever come on this site again and say something as annoying and dreadful as "go red sox".

as matt said....fuck the red sawx....and their annoying "nation" or whatever they call it.

that is all. thanks! please continue. oh and go twins!


Posted on October 12, 2008 at 12:38 AM by Betaband Highlight this comment 13

I was in Orlando for a week in August and made the two-hour trek to watch the Rays and Angles. I don't expect anyone to remember my post but I mentioned that Tropicana Field is tiny compared to the Dome. Yes, it is specific to baseball and the concourses are wider and more dynamic than the Dome (then again, what does it really take to beat a 20ft concrete tunnel) but I actually preferred the Dome/playing area. The Trop may look small on TV but it gets even smaller in person.

Does anyone else think the administration building in left field is a poor rendition of 1960's architecture? I think it would look better keeping a limestone "framework" than the steel and glass look. The part I really don't like is the diagonal beam across the face of it. I think it would look pretty neat if the foul pole was attached to the corner of the building from the base to the top (with the stonework of course).

Also, I just did my duty and spent $35 this evening at our new Target. I don't pay MN taxes so here is my avenue of pitching in.

Posted on October 12, 2008 at 03:39 AM by chuck in ak Highlight this comment 14

As an avid baseball fan, I will never step inside of Comerica just drove me nuts to watch Detroit abandon one of the coolest venues in the MLB. Mike Illitch completely left Tiger Stadium to rot - and avoided routine maintenance to help push the movement to get a new park. If you've never been to Tiger Stadium, it's too was one of the most unique and historic parks in all of baseball.

Posted on October 12, 2008 at 6:03 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 15

It's interesting to see the progress of the suites from webcam2. You can see the walls going up that divide each of the suites.

It's also fun to see how quickly the upper concourse is progressing with the concession areas and restrooms. We should start seeing the canopy installation within the next few weeks.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 10:48 AM by Mike Brumley Highlight this comment 16

I lived near Detroit for seven years and had the pleasure of attending a game at Tiger Stadium. Little did I know it would be my only one.

The thing to understand about Detroit is that its decline was completely predictable given the forces at work. Post-WWII federal housing policies encouraged urban sprawl and white flight. Redlining ensured that Detroit would become the most segregated city in the U.S. (and the Twin Cities region is not far behind). I-75 plowed through prosperous African American neighborhoods that also just happened to be the biggest jazz scene outside New York (all the big names played there, now there's just a big freeway). Residents of St. Paul's Rondo neighborhood experienced similar things.

People from the Detroit area don't refer to themselves as living in Detroit -- they live in Canton or Bloomfield Hills or Royal Oak, completely opposite the attitude in places like Chicago. People in the Detroit suburbs have complete and utter disdain for their central city. My sense is that it's not the city itself they have disdain for. It's the people -- black people.

People all over the country like to make jokes about Detroit, but it's not funny. Detroit is the microcosm of the U.S. today -- polarized along racial lines and a symbol of racial and economic injustice. We need to reckon with our past and honestly admit what was done to Detroit and cities across the country. Only then can we actually start to fix the problem and rebuild our great cities once more. Detroit has some fantastic architectural and cultural treasures. We need to cherish these, preserve them and revive our centers of learning, culture and community.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 11:51 AM by David Highlight this comment 17

Where exactly did you live near Detroit David? I am from a suburb of Detroit, and you can check my past postings and I call myself a Detroiter. Your post was one of the most stereotyped and ignorant views of the city I have ever read. It seems as though the only perspective of the city you have is the one ballgame you attended there. Although many of the cities problems in the past are rooted in racial divide, I am insulted to be grouped into a population that you callously report as having "disdain" for black people. I love the city of Detroit, and any disdain I have is for politicians like Kwame Kilpatrick that lie and cost the hard working citizens millions of their tax dollars. Don't subsitute a visit to a baseball game as real experience of a city. Read up and take your bigoted posts elsewhere.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 12:38 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 18

So David, you were one of the suburbanites who disdained black people? Sheesh, it sounds like I've spent more time in Detroit proper than you have. Tiger Stadium deserved to be restored...the stadium wasn't moved to the burbs - it's just hop and a skip across town.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 1:16 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 19


Bigoted? I don't think so.

Of course the general experiences I had don't apply to every individual. But to deny the racial tension and injustice in the Detroit area is simply wrong. It's there and we have to name it if we are to make any progress. It's not just "in the past." It is very, very present. The problems today are rooted in racial injustice.

I worked on a Habitat house in central Detroit. I saw the burned out buildings next to it. I also saw the brand new stone mansions across the street, the ones with the big iron fence around them. It seems lessons have not been learned.

I've walked around Belle Isle, in many ways a microcosm of the metro area -- pristine parkland with majestic fountains on one side, weeds and dirty beaches on the other.

I agree with your assessment of Kwame Kilpatrick. He not only needs to go, he needs to go to jail. Detroit has a long history of political corruption and that's part of the story of its decline. People don't get a free pass from me based on race.

OG Jeff, Tiger stadium absolutely should have been saved. I don't believe I ever wrote that it shouldn't have been. It could have been an economic engine for a very depressed neighborhood. But it could also have been the source of gentrification and pushing people out (see the point about brand new mansions above). But done right, it could have remained a jewel for another century.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 1:36 PM by David Highlight this comment 20

I'm not sure that David's comments are that off-base. There is utter disdain between Metro Detroit and Detroit proper. And yes, there still is a racial divide in Detroit present today, just look at the website my name...Just makes me sick.

Detroit used to be the envy of every urban center during the 1950s. Amazing prosperity and pride. Well, then the summer of 1967 happened and the city hasn't been the same since. Very sad.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 1:45 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 21

Listen, I think you make some points that are indisputable, but you really risk offending people when you make broad general statements about a group of people. If you notice I avoided calling you bigoted, but your post certainly was. Your comments are legitimate when you say that many current problems are still rooted in racism, but you contribute to that problem when you blanket a group as a whole by the actions of a few! After all, isn't that was stereotyping and racism are based on?

I disagree with your view in general that there is disdain for Detroit within Southeast Michigan. I am always amazed when I visit home and in an economy that is absolutely devastated there is an enormous amount of pride and optimism for a revival of a once great city. And with Matt Millen gone, we are one step closer to taking care of another embarassment! Now to address the ref's at the metrodome yesterday...

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 1:49 PM by mplsgregut Highlight this comment 22

Kevin, what exactly are you proving by attaching that link? I mean come on, you do a google search for "racist website" and then try to say that is representative of suburban Detroiters? That's pretty much the equivalent of posting a KKK site and saying it's a statement about the feelings of white Americans...

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 1:58 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 23

mplsgreg.....put down the kool aid

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:01 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 24


What David said was not biggoted. Stating that there's division in Detroit is not racist, it's a FACT. I am not biggoted in what I said. I simply put a website on there to prove the utter racism prevailant in Metro Detroit. You will not find a far more left wing liberal than me. TAKE A PILL GREG before you start swinging your "KKK" judgements around - it makes you look like a fool and completely diminishes REAL racism.

Stating that racism exists is not racist, if you think so, get your head examined.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:04 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 25

kevin in az- david's original post did say people in detroit suburbs have disdain, and it was for black people. that is bigoted and you look like a fool for including your link.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:20 PM by brad j Highlight this comment 26

brad and greg.

david said people in detroit suburbs have disdain for black people.
HOW IS THAT RACIST??? People in detroit suburbs DO have disdain for black people. He didn't say ALL people in the suburbs have disdain for black people.

LEARN HOW TO READ PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:25 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 27

Had david or I said that WE had disdain for black people, that would be racist, but stating a fact that there are people in suburban detroit that have disdain for blacks in the city is simply stating a fact, not being racist.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:28 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 28


Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:31 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 29

what greg

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:33 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 30

Hi Kevin

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:46 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 31

Ok, I'd like to get this back to a reasonable tone. I'm glad we're talking about this, though, because it's critically important to the future of our country.

We have to acknowledge as a society that racism did not just go away in the 1960's. Yet that is the predominant story we hear today. The Detroit metro area is a clear indication of where we are in race relations. The reactions so far demonstrate why we need to be talking. Because we haven't been and that leads to a whole lot of tension, misunderstanding and inability to see something from another perspective.

For me, this isn't about Detroit. This is about the Twin Cities. If we don't address our own racial divides, we're going to end up exactly like Detroit. It's already happening. Look at the decisions we're making around our transit system -- few stops on Central Corridor in historically black neighborhoods; proposed cuts to local bus service along that same route; a proposal for the SW LRT line to completely avoid North Minneapolis; fare increases and service cuts that disproportionately affect black people.

We have to learn from the past and keep talking. We have to change things. This is about my city and my country. If we don't address these issues, it's not just black people that are going to suffer, it's me, too! Minneapolis and St. Paul won't be very nice places if the ~40% of their populations that are minorities continue to be cut off from jobs and opportunity.

One more thing. This isn't about people making bigoted comments. Those are the easy things to deal with. The real problem are the institutionalized processes that cut off minority and low income populations. They rear their ugly heads under seemingly innocuous names like "cost-effectiveness index" (who could be against cost-effectiveness?), but their effects are to systemically cut off communities and rob them of any benefits from public investment.

Hey, I'm a white guy. I don't have all the answers. But you know what? I shouldn't have all the answers and claiming to would be in fact reinforcing the problem. It turns out that the people in those black communities have some pretty good ideas about what needs to happen. We white folk need to start listening to them.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:47 PM by David Highlight this comment 32

There is nothing wrong with pointing out that a city is racist. I don't agree that David's post was "bigoted." Racism is obviously still alive in every major city, suburb, and town in our country, but we need to get to a point where we can have civil discussions about this, without assuming that certain people are racists because they brought up the topic.

Over at the baseball-fever forums, the topic of racism and how it relates to Tiger Stadium has been well documented by locals who still live in the city of Detroit. There is a large group of African Americans in Detroit who are/were offended by the treatment of blacks in and around Tiger Stadium.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:47 PM by Lafferty Highlight this comment 33

Ok, obviously having an issue getting posts to work properly. I simply stated that David's post was bigoted because it appeared as though he was referring to all suburban Detroiters. Obviously I was not the only one who interpreted it that way. I thought he cleared it up pretty well by himself by stating that was not his intent. And I thought I cleared things up by acknowledging that I am well aware racism still exists, as is evident in the website linked to Kevin's previous post.

I'm not trying to infer that anyone here is a racist (except defintely the web editors of Kevin's link). If someone posted "People in Minneapolis are dumb", I would also be pissed. This is a reminder that a qualifier in front of "people", such as "a few people, or "some people" can help greatly when trying to make a point. Over, done.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:54 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 34

AMEN to that David. I have good friends in Livonia who have lived there over 40 years and can count on one hand how many times they've traveled to Detroit city. Why? Because they're scared of it. I think they're nuts but that's common in suburban Detroit as many of their neighbors feel the same way they do.

Greg, I know you have good intentions with Detroit. Many in SE Michigan have talked about a rennasaince for 30 years, but that's just it. It's never really materialized. They tried to 30 years ago but it never really spread. DT Detroit still looks like a war zone in many places. The nice area created by the Fox Theatre and Comerica is nice, but you go 5 blocks outside of it and you're back in Beirut.

I am actually old enough to remember 1950's Detroit. Every young engineer wanted to be there. The best and brightest worked in Detroit, they had the highest skilled work force of any city in the USA. Many of the fled to the Suburbs or out of Michigan entirely during the 1970s. The ones that remain have to stay because they own their homes and can now only sell them for a loaf of bread if their lucky. The ones that live there are dirt poor and can't revitalize the city themselves, they need help from SE Michigan and they've been indifferent. Talk is nice, but action is better. The places that are starting to see new life is being made by middle-eastern immigrants buying up abandoned storesfronts and opening small businesses, I sure hope it continues because the Suburbanites in Detroit have ignored their city for far too long.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:54 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 35

Yes greg, that's why I said it's just sick when I referred to that link. Scroll up to my post where I put that link. I said it's sick. No way did I promote it. I put it there to further prove David's point that there are sick assholes who run websites like that and actually take pride in Detroit's ruin. We MUST be aware of the racism that exists so we can fight it. We can't put our heads in the sand and pretend that it doesn't exist, it will not go away by itself. Greg I didn't mean to jump down your throat. You have been one of the most thoughtful and insightful ballpark posters on here. I always enjoy your imput and agree with you 99% of the time. But when I read your post to David, it was just simply off base, I really don't think you understood what David was trying to say, now you do and I'm glad to see that.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 2:58 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 36


New thread......PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 3:02 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 37

Dammit Kevin, I was about to agree with you completely until your last sentence. Won't you let me get anything done today?? This is defintely a two-way street. Many suburbanites are ex-Detroiters, as is my family, who felt that the city ignored them. Many in Detroit including city council nutbags believe they don't need the suburbs. WRONG. If anyone is flashing over these posts quickly, let me tell you that Minneapolis has a lot to learn from the city of Detoit. Don't abandon your core. Here is someone that is super happy the ballpark is being built downtown.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 3:03 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 38

Kevin, glad we could agree. Maybe we should be running congress. NEXT THREAD!!

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 39

Who cares about Detroit? Really?

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 3:06 PM by Matt Highlight this comment 40

It was not really my intent to start a discussion on racism in Detroit, but, given the current dynamics in the presidential race, I think it's safe to say that racism is a big topic everywhere these days.

I did not see David's post as racist in any way. In speaking with my brother about the dynamics of Detroit (he lived there and in Flint for several years), he admitted his own initial shock at discovering that racism was so pervasive and barely-concealed. That, of course, is not unique to Detroit -- nor does it encompass every person, or even necessarily a majority of people, or even just people of one skin color or another.

But as David points out, when that simmering racism was mixed with extremely hard economic times, the result is a city which has been unable to heal itself -- despite repeated attempts (some more real than others).

It is fair to say that vast portions of the population in and around Detroit (of all ethnicities) have simply abandoned the city altogether.

The demise of Tiger Stadium is one symptom, but let me give another.

When visiting Comerica Park for the first time, my brother gave me the skinny on parking. There are a couple of official lots right next to the ballpark, but those cost $20 or more.

Within a couple of blocks are a whole bunch of free lots. Yes, you read that right: free. Well, they are not so much parking lots as just abandoned lots on which people are allowed to park.

This is something you'll never see on a TV broadcast from Comerica or Ford Field. But many of the people attending those games parked on land which was simply vacant -- with a half dozen blocks of the stadium!

Why aren't companies snapping up this land, paving it, and charging money to park there? Because the city won't let them. No matter how many times it's explained to me, I still don't get it. But the city has adopted policies which prevent certain areas from being redeveloped.

One of those areas is the section of town burned in that riot back in 1967.

As we left that game, the police were directing traffic, and allowed only one path back to the freeway: right through the worst burned-out area. My brother and I sat in shocked silence, looking at building after building on block after block which had been burned decades ago, yet never even torn down, let alone redeveloped. It looked like a movie set. Just about impossible to believe.

On the steps of these buildings, watching the cars parade by at five miles an hour or so, were many people who appeared to be the faces of poverty -- African-American faces every one.

As I investigated this, it turned out to be a very grotesque type of theater, put on jointly by the city and some of its residents who do, in fact, live in abject poverty. There was a message meant for those of us who could afford to spend an evening watching baseball. But there was simultaneously a message being sent by the cops to those sitting on the steps.

I will never forget what I saw, yet I admit that I understood maybe 10% of its implications.

I haven't seen race relations the same since then. What I thought was a solved problem, turned out to be just an ignored problem.

But it is sobering to realize that it is not a uniquely Detroit problem. It's an American problem which cannot be resolved by deciding to vote for this person or that person based on skin color.

My wife is currently attending a seminar on racism being held for clergy. At the last session, someone noted that all but one of the faces were white (the other, Indian). That same person went on to say that they weren't doing any good by just sitting around talking about this among themselves.

But the moderator stepped in quickly to note that acknowledging and understanding the sources of lingering racism within ourselves and -- even more importantly -- within our institutions is essential to any meaningful progress in dialog across racial lines.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 3:14 PM by Rick 41

Rick, no one ever said David or his post were racist. But you make some great points about racism. Nothing has ever been solved by sweeping it under the carpet. Except bundling bad mortgages into securities. Oh, wait...

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 3:22 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 42

Makes me wonder how Detroit was awarded Super Bowl XL in 2006. Yes, Ford Field is a great football venue, but I just don't see how Detroit was awarded that game.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 3:49 PM by Craig - Plymouth Highlight this comment 43

Racism is begotten by classism and fueld by it as well. In the same manner as one person would catagorically deny someone else equality based on racial differences someone else is using that fight against lower classes to distract them of their real problems.... A severely shrinking middle class. If someone thinks tht tehy are superior to another based on race, when their own middle class status is pulled out from under them.... well now at least they aren't black right? That's how messed up it is. You think the richest 1% in this country care if you are black, white or purple? All they know is that their peers have money, and power and that is their common bond. Not race.

Yet we at the middle class and poverty struggle with eachother based on race and worry about who is taking ours. It's maddening to watch a country where the bottom 97% can't agree to work together to do better. The majority of us that frequent this site are obviously intelligent enough to not subscribe to the foolish divide and conquer schemes but it is going to take a whole lot more cooperation and refusing to buy into the 1%ers ploy that the people that have nothing are the ones taking away from us. - Wait. Let me say that again. The top 1% would have us believe that those with less than us are the ones keeping us from having what we want..... Which for many of us who follow religion or just have a sense of common decency would rationally understand that goes against our values yet we still blame those that aren't like us.

Why is it so effective? Because it's a natural behavior.... in the animal world anyway. It preys on primal instinct to live by the boundaries of pack life. As humans we know better yet we fall back on it with societal issues time and time again. We are smart enough to move past these things but in my opinion it happens slowly. We are only a few decades removed from some of the worst racial tensions in history... but we are learning. We will go through periods of enlightenment and regression but we will continue moving forward so long as the discussions like the one here on this blog continue to play out.

The most racist people in our society are being weeded out and their ideals are being rejected more and mroe by society. the realization and enlightenment is that we as a society need to understand who is keeping us from what we want to be, and how we as a society can decide to get there. It takes time for this kind of awakening and realization. It's happening. And this election cycle regardless of it's outcome is already a demonstration of that happening.

Think about the world a child the age of 1 will grow to live in (provided we don't kill ourselves before then). Many of society's hurdles will have been cleared. Some of them will still lay ahead. But I know the racism and other societal ills that I have had to deal with in my lifetime are very much different than those that my father lived through. Slowly we change for the better.

We are evolving and we will get there.

I wish I could really explain what I mean by all this rambling on and on. I've thought about this a great deal in my life and my ideas on human behavior, social behaviors and why we do the things we do are many and too large to be put into a single post on a blog somewhere. But I for one have a lot of hope for the human race and I know that as I age I will see a lot of good things happen. In that, I have faith.

Also, I apologize for my many typos. I'm not going back to fix them.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 4:17 PM by moda253 Highlight this comment 44

Rick, thanks for sharing that story.

I don't know what the deal is with the city not allowing redevelopment. My speculation is that people living in the city are concerned about gentrification and being pushed out. There's a real tension there -- people in Detroit want investment in their city but they also want to participate in the economic windfall. Such things have to be done very carefully to make sure people can stay in their homes. There are many tools to help with this, including tax abatement, job training and hiring goals.

I've heard the, "we're all white in this room and so we can't talk about race" argument far too many times. I submit that if we're in an all-white room, we have to talk about race, if only to question among ourselves why there are only white people there.

One of the reasons minority and low income people are worried about gentrification is that there's been no real conversation about race. We pay lip service but little more. If we start talking about this, people will get into relationship and we can start to build some trust. That's not everything we need but it's necessary.

It takes trust and patience on both sides. As someone who got involved in Central Corridor conversations centered and race and injustice, I can personally attest to the patience and self-reflection needed to start working through this stuff. I've had to question a lot of my assumptions and so have others around the table. I've had a very difficult time not questioning people's motives. But I try to work past that and after a year, I can see real progress. It's a hell of a struggle, but it's the most necessary and worthwhile struggle I'll ever go through.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 4:21 PM by David Highlight this comment 45

Rick - Please start a new thread

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 4:26 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 46

Let us not forget that the race riots of the 60's were not confined to Detroit, Chicago, and L.A. I woke up in North Minneapolis the day after Dr. King was assassinated in 1968 to find a jeep with National Guardsmen holding rifles parked in front of my house. I lived three blocks from Plymouth Avenue where most of the rioting took place. That left a huge impression on a 9-year-old white kid in the inner city. There are still big chunks of land along Plymouth that have not been re-developed since that event. So although we may have been less scarred by that era than some areas, we did have (and continue to have) plenty problems of our own.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 4:32 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 47

Juggler, you're absolutely right that the civil rights riots of the 60s were not unique to Detroit, however, Detroit was by far the most devastated. It's so sad to take a drive down W. Grand Blvd and see all those incredible mansions all abandoned, boarded up, garbage in the front yard, roof sometimes caved in. For those of you who haven't seen it, just picture in your mind Summit Ave or Minnehaha Pkwy all abandoned and blighted - that is Detroit. It's just sad. I remember visiting Detroit when it thrived and man did it thrive. I am not exaggerating when every US city in the 1950s wanted to be like Detroit, they were the envy of every US city including Mpls/St Paul. In fact the Twin Cities used to love the comparison to Detroit, now we cry everytime somebody does it.

Rick, I loved that you pointed out the dynamics of our current presidential race, that is so true. Regardless of what side of the aisle a person is on, it has to make one sick to hear the "terrorist" rhetoric being puked up by Caribou Barbie at her stump rallies. I pray to God that some wingnut doesn't take her BS to heart and do the unthinkable. I have seen too many American heroes killed in my lifetime (JFK, MLK, RFK). It is my opinion that because she opened this door, she should be shackled to Barack Obama's ankles so wherever he goes, she goes and if something horrible happens to him, it also happens to her.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 8:39 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 48

For one there's always an opposite. Kevin you're telling me that you actually believe the crap that Obama spews out of his trap? One angle is that YES, Barack Obama has quite the shady past with his associations (and then subsequently drops them when they become a liability) to his campaign). You're turning a blind eye to deny his past. However, that all put aside, you're still in favor of social engineering? I don't care what skin color Obama has, but his socialist ideals will drive this country into the ground. The sad thing is he's going to win in Nov and that will be the beginning of the end for this country.

Now I'm just pissed. Let's just get back to ribbon board bashing and talking about the steel framing going up.

Win Twins!!!
(at least we all can agree on that)

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 9:23 PM by chuck in ak Highlight this comment 49

Funny, I could have sworn this was a site to get news on the new Twins ballpark.

Looks like I'll be looking only at the pictures from now on. Thanks for ruining this for me.

Have a nice day.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 9:37 PM by Choke yourselves. Highlight this comment 50

Rick, nice story, but I have one HUGE issue with what you said.

Taking a vacant lot and paving it for parking is not, under any circumstances, redevelopment. I'd view it as a step backwards, frankly. The city has parking up the wazoo - it's absolutely a good policy to prevent more parking lots from coming into the market. The rule of thumb I was told when I was living in Michigan was that if you payed for parking, you were doing something wrong.

Detroit can't attract redevelopment for a number of reasons - the Michigan economy stinks, the tax burden in the city is really high (and you get no services for those taxes), the city is essentially broke, etc. The list goes on and on and on. Having worked on several redevelopment projects in downtown Detroit, one thing I can say for certain is that the lack of progress certainly isn't due to a lack of trying or a lack of ideas.

Detroit, having worked there for a couple of months, visited more frequently, and spent many a night in downtown, is an utterly fascinating place - mostly for the wrong reasons. Still, having spent that time there, it has a soft spot in my heart. I hope to get back sometime soon, grab a few beers at Detroit Brewing, or the Town Pump, grab a gyro in Greektown, etc.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 9:52 PM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 51

I'll have to agree with "choke yourselves" bring all that shit somewhere else, seriously. Thanks a lot David

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 10:30 PM by Ballpark(not racism) Highlight this comment 52


I agree completely that parking does not constitute redevelopment! Paving a vacant lot for parking is a long way from the best use -- especially that close to the downtown core.

But it is a use, and it meets an obvious demand (acknowledging that a shortage of parking isn't exactly a problem). Without knowing the exact ownership and status of those parcels (clearly visible on satellite photos for those who are interested), it's hard to say exactly what could be done.

But the city of Minneapolis, for all its faults, has been a master at turning vacant lots into revenue (yes, I know, they created most of those vacant lots by urban clear-cutting which was, in a word, stupid). One can't help but think that Detroit could do something similar in the interim just to overcome the stigma associated with unused land.

Then, as markets evolve, those parking lots can become something else (as all those lots along Washington Avenue have over the past few years). I'm simplifying, of course, but the whole "free parking on vacant lots within a few blocks of two stadiums" thing is very weird.

I know Detroit has tried to recover, and has made strides. I had the opportunity to ride several times on that people mover thing which was always jam-packed. Portions of the downtown actually feel like most other urban downtowns, with a unique grandeur all its own.

I root for Detroit's recovery, to be sure.

Sorry to those uninterested in such things, but detours happen. One could argue that such issues are more important than ballparks -- anywhere but here, that is!

New thread later tonight.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 10:49 PM by Rick 53

Don't be pissed Chuck. The sun will come up tomorrow, at least it will down here in the lower 48. I'll be sure to send you my condolences on Nov. 5 :-)

And thanks Rick, I look forward to the new thread. And to close this thread, I leave you all with a tired joke from the 70s....."Just think, if Detroit were only a few miles to the east it would be Canada's problem, not ours"....I apologize to you in advance Greg.

Posted on October 13, 2008 at 11:54 PM by kevin in az Highlight this comment 54

Man I really love that Target field.... its gonna be so cool....

Posted on October 14, 2008 at 08:01 AM by mazaratirick Highlight this comment 55

This page was last modified on January 21, 2010.

"You talk about the magic, the aura, but what really makes a stadium is the fans. Concrete doesn't talk back to you. Chairs don't talk back to you. It's the people who are there, day in, day out, that makes the place magic."

– Bernie Williams

Explore the Site

Here are 50 images chosen randomly from the 3046 found on this site. Click the image to be taken to the original post. A new list is created every 10 minutes.

This is as close as I could get to a pedestrian-eye view of the main entrance. This is what you'll see as you enter by coming down Sixth Street.

For those who have never seen it up close, that's what it looks like when steam comes out of the HERC plant.

B ramp glimpse

I finally found the corner of TF dedicated to the Senators. What a wonderful sight.

This design has a rather generic quality to it, but they appear to have considered the B garage. Though it isn't part of the model, they've clearly left room for it.

A view straight on of the Pro Shop area and ticket windows (just barely visible). The piers you see beneath the plaza are already almost completed (see final photo).

Limestone facing and flowers on the right field overhang

Looking from First Avenue toward the ballpark (over the top of a construction barricade)

Serious home dugout work in progress.

Here's the entrance from the seating bowl. It's down the outer moat, just beyond the last of the Dugout Box sections.

The official ballpark development area

Looking up Fifth, with LRT tracks and B ramp at left

Section 117, Row WC (applies to all the back rows under the Legends Club seating)

Just so you have a reference, this is an LD ("low def") scoreboard (inset is what the controller probably looks like).

Walkway connection

A whole bunch of guys working on something.

Gate 3 "Killebrew"

Center field seating

Of the players up there, only Bert does not have a gate with his number (28) on it at Target Field. You know, there is that door underneath the skywalk on Seventh Street between gates 14 and 29...

Knothole non-view #1

Emergency access as viewed from outside the ballpark

Looking down what was Third Avenue, and will be a freeway entrance ramp beneath the outfield stands.

Dan Mehls, Mortenson Construction

A truck is leaving the HERC plant. Here you can see the proximity to the promenade. For the record, the truck drove right by me and I smelled nothing...

This looks from the base of the stairs, behind the big pillars, toward the street.

Here's a first view of the surprisingly spacious walkway on Fifth between the ballpark and the LRT platform.

The connection from the corner of Seventh Street and Second Avenue. You can now see where the little grassy area and franchise history board will be (the triangular area in the foreground).

This view, through a B ramp window, won't last forever.

At the other end of the bridge, the configuration of the tracks has become clear.

I'm not sure why there's a wreath on Gate 3. (I quickly checked the headlines for any dreaded Killebrew news. Whew.) It looks to be in celebration, maybe of the move.

The plaza as viewed from across the park. The right field overhang section will be built just in from where the plaza supports are.

The LRT station, sitting in a brand new urban canyon, takes shape.

Opening Day 2008 (By Currier & Ives)


BPM - Ballpark Magic

BRT - Bus Rapid Transit

DSP - Dave St. Peter

FSE - Full Season Equivalent

FYS - Fake Yankee Stadium (see also: NYS)

HERC - Hennepin Energy Resource Company (aka the Garbage Burner)

HPB - Home Plate Box

HRP - Home Run Porch

LC - Legends Club

LRT - Light Rail Transit

MBA - Minnesota Ballpark Authority (will own Target Field)

MOA - Mall of America

MSFC - Minnesota Sports Facilities Commission (owns the Metrodome)

NYS - New Yankee Stadium

SRO - Standing Room Only

STH - Season Ticket Holder

TCFBS - TCF Bank Stadium

TF - Target Field

Selected Bibliography - Analysis


First Edition (1992)

Second Edition (2006)


Selected Bibliography - Surveys


Second Edition (1987)

Not a "Third Edition" exactly,
but it replaced the above title

(2000, large coffee table)

Original edition (2000, round)

Revised edition (2006, round)

(2001, medium coffee table)

(2002, small coffee table)

(2003, medium coffee table)

(2004, very large coffee table)

(2006, very large coffee table)

Combines the previous two titles
(2007, medium coffee table)

Selected Bibliography - Nostalgia


Book and six ballpark miniatures

Complete Bibliography

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