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A Football Place: Nuts and Bolts

September 3, 2009 10:19 PM

Now that a major milestone for Target Field is in the rearview mirror, let's step back and take a look at a few more images from that other stadium opening around these parts. (Click here for part one of my look at TCF Bank Stadium.)

There was so much to like about TCF Bank Stadium that I doubt I could even list it all. One of its greatest powers was the simplicity of the design of the seating bowl. It's a horseshoe. Open on one end. That makes it, schematically at least, deeply similar to its predecessor, and much more aesthetically pleasing than an enclosed (especially -- gasp -- symmetrical) oval.

They could have easily enclosed that end and added some seating, but leaving it open connects it very tangibly to the U and lends an airiness to it.

And what they did with that area is also special because it makes scenes like this wonderfully possible:

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In all of the literature they mention that the stadium has about 50,000 seats, but that it is expandable. It's easy to see where some expansion could come:

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Just beyond that banner is a large flat roof onto which some 30,000 more seats could be plopped. OK, it's more complicated than that, but expandability is a good thing, especially if you harbor any desires about attracting another, somewhat more visible, tennant.

But I'll tell you this: This is not a multi-team stadium. Just about everything is branded in a very permanent way with an M. If the Vikings have any ideas about paying for 30,000 more seats and moving in, they can just forget about it. This is the Gophers' stadium, and don't you ever forget it. Here are just a couple of examples of permanent logos (the big M's in the seats also qualify, of course):

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There are lots more, including those fabulous gigantic gates which open onto University Avenue.

It's one of the things I hate most about the Metrodome. It just never felt like it really belonged to any of the teams which called it home. It could change its spots in a couple of hours, and even then there is an impermanence about the branding. Banners are just not the same as wrought iron.

With the Twins and Gophers gone, the Vikes do intend to make the place their own (for at least as long as they play there), including selling naming rights to the roof, among other things. (You may one day be taking a leak in the Viagra troughs.)

Much has been made about the decision to use bench seating without backs at TCFBS. I find it murder to sit on these things for more than a few minutes, so at first I thought that was insane. But now I understand. You can rent your seat back, have it professionally installed, for $48 per season. It's a revenue stream!

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Lots of people are doing it.

I don't follow football stadium construction closely enough to know if this is an innovation or just the adoption of something commonly in use elsewhere.

I also haven't seen this sort of thing before:

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The seats are bolted to the floor, but it appears that they can be quickly removed and rolled away. It may be the state of the art in accessible seating (that's where I saw them) but I just don't know.

You may remember that I was surprised to learn a few weeks ago that Target Field will include some catwalk access to areas of the upper deck (er, View Level). I found some similar short catwalks at TCFBS.

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These particular ones connect the DQ Club to the seating bowl and what I presume are some sort of premium seats (they looked like regular seats to me, but having access through the lounge requires a special ticket).

Here's the view back toward the door:

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Premium seat options are plentiful, as you know. There are special elevators from the main concourse, tucked away. The elevator lobby that we used also had privileged access to one of the pro shops...

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...along with extensive, TCFBS branded recycling and trash receptacles:

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I will take a picture of just about anything.

Here's just one of the reasons football stadiums are so different from baseball facilities: you can put the premium seating above and behind all the rest of the regular seating.

Even though the classes are rigidly separated at TCFBS, just like everywhere else, it is possible to forget that you are among the rabble because the premium seats don't really intrude. In a baseball stadium, the premium seats always push the cheap seats up and farther away from the playing field. In a football stadium, they tend to ride above the top of everything else (Metrodome excepted, of course).

There are some four or five levels (depending on how you count) of premium seats at TCFBS. We saw only a small portion of them, and I'm not sure that would be my first choice for how to see a game (my host mentioned as much when I picked up the tickets; he planned to use his regular seats much more than the Loge boxes). But if your investment is more about networking and deal-making than it is about football, the space is perfect. There were plenty of quiet nooks which one of the ushers told me were specifically included so people would have a place to go and talk on their cell phones!

One thing the premium areas do have in abundance is good food. I don't know if these prices are permanent or just for the exhibition but they were not bad.

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The other day I mentioned the trend toward gigantic staircases in sporting facilities (I also saw examples at NYS and CitiField), and TCFBS features plenty of them. They are very long and actually pretty impressive. My hunch is that new facilities favor these because accessibility issues are completely resolved by elevators.

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Staircase entrance. You cannot miss them.


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Note the gigantic -- and very permanent -- M's on the gates at the base of these stairs.

Access to the upper sections is also largely by staircase.

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Even so, they managed to incorporate very spacious exit ramps (not even hinted at on the outside facade, even though they do have windows as you get closer to the ground).

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The Twins, of course, took exactly the opposite approach on their circulation ramps, choosing facade elements (the louvres) which call attention to them. Both approaches work, but I think I prefer the Twins' approach generally. Circulation is a central function of these buildings, and there's something to be said for letting a building look like what it is. That said, TCFBS is certainly a justified exception given the goals of the facade, and the genuine beauty they accomplished.

As you enter or exit from the north or east (and maybe the other directions) you will have to cross a little moat like this one:

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These are rain gardens, handling the stadium's runoff. Very cool.

Here are a couple of random images, including two that I promised in the earlier entry.

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Field access on the visitor's side


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The lights have covers on the top, presumably to reduce light pollution


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Did I mention that the cheerleaders looked pretty sharp?


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Open concourses do mean that you can glimpse the field no matter where you are, but not really the game.

This weekend I'm headed back to the State Fair with some friends. This is the group of guys (all U of M alumni) that always makes a stop at the U of M booth out there. Normally, I just look at stuff and pass through rather quickly. This year, I'm grabbing something to wear to show my colors!

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I'm out of town again for a couple of days, but you can watch Facebook for updates from my phone until I get to a computer again. (Today it was a trip to Murphy Field in Waunakee, WI, and I'll be posting a picture of my baseball-themed birthday cake just for fun as soon as my battery finishes recharging.)

My sister-in-law is letting me use her MacBook tonight and I feel a little bit like a fish out of water here. If there are typos, I apologize. The buttons are all in the wrong places, and I can't type like normal. Where the hell are Home and End and Delete (the real Delete, not that Backspace disguised as a Delete key) and PgUp?? Yep, I'm a geek alright. And I don't quite get what people like about these things, but I'm glad I had this opportunity to get back to a picture set that I thought you would enjoy.

I do keep up on comments on my phone a few times each day and I'm testing some new code that allows me to respond without opening the site (a feature I hope to make accessible to all in the near future).

Thanks for stopping by and for all the kind words. I really do appreciate it.

Comments


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Nice article,Rick! One nice touch is having all of the names of the Minnesota counties engraved around the outside of the stadium. That really makes it the stadium of the people of Minnesota.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 12:10 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 1

Click link for a very cool interactive feature of TCFBS in the Star Tribune.

You can check out interactive floor plans and view photo archives of the construction to name a few things.

I really hope they do something like this for Target Field in seven months!

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 12:51 AM by Mike Highlight this comment 2

there are so many little touches to love about this place... just like TF. the attention to details in these places is commendable - it's going to be very disjointing to go from a town with some of the worst facilities in sports to a town with more than just the X.

TCF Bank - elite facility in college football, puts the Gophers in the upper echelon of the Big Ten

Marriucci - before that monstrosity was built in Grand Forks it was the premier college hockey facility... it's still a top 5, almost 20 years on...

Williams Arena - Along with Crisler Arena, Assembly Hall (IU and UI) it's right there among the best college hoops arenas in America

TF - likely re-defining MLB parks and ushering in a new jewelbox era

the X - the best arena in the NHL

all that leaves is the dome and target center as the relics of a sad sporting past.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 01:00 AM by CJ Highlight this comment 3

You are right on CJ.

The RCA Dome in Indianapolis (very similar to Metrodome) was actually built after the Metrodome and is now non-existant showing just how antiquated that facility was.

The Orlando Magic's arena opened in 1989 (same era as Target Center) and they are already building a new arena in Orlando, scheduled to open one year from now. In fact, the Magic were only in their arena 10 years before they were talking about a new arena.

Although I could care less about the Timberwolves and the Target Center, I think the Vikings will eventually get a stadium deal done here in Minnesota. Once the economy turns around and we get our new Governor, I think this issue will eventually be addressed. I would hope it will also help the Vikings when people begin to see the positive impacts of Target Field and TCF Bank Stadium. We all know what Xcel Center has done.

Yes, its going to be another very long and controversial project with a hefty price tag, but I think the Vikings will get their stadium too. It might take a guaranteed Super Bowl from the NFL and a guaranteed Final Four from the NCAA. Heck, maybe the NBA could guarantee the Wolves an All-Star game at the future Vikings stadium.

This is going to be a situation where the Vikings ownership will have to step up even more than they have, as well as the NFL. The Vikings will also need to better sell their whole "downtown east re-development" plan to coincide with the Hiawatha and Central Corridor lines.

They should have just stuck with their original Northern Lights plan in Blaine with Anoka County rather than backing out of that deal.

You can say LA Vikings all you want, but the reality is, California is in no better shape financially than Minnesota is. They also have issues with the Raiders, 49ers, and Chargers.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 02:35 AM by Mike Brumley (aka Mike) Highlight this comment 4

thumbs up Rick. great pics as always. thanks for pointing out the seat-back installation at TCFBS. I'd seen other pics (on Flickr) and wondered, what did they put out there? I was thinking it was something like that, but now, confirmation.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 06:57 AM by luke Highlight this comment 5

thanks for that link, Mike. Like when the target field seating view page first went up, i'm not getting much done here at work playing with the features there, it's very cool. Startrib will have a special section in sunday's paper showcasing the gophers new home. Rick's photos really bring to life how the stadium's architecture lends itself to the college football atmosphere. Fill that place with 50,000 people and it's going to be electric.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 07:06 AM by tim Highlight this comment 6

They have those bolted down seats in the SF Giants ballpark (PacBell/SBC/AT&T Etc. Park) . They used them extensively for the 2007 All Star game. They also made a number of other expansion areas that year and most if not all of them were made permanent.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 07:20 AM by Chuck Highlight this comment 7

Those bolted down seats (for a fee) are quite common at big time college football stadiums with bench seats. See Michigan Wolverines and I think Notre Dame.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 07:39 AM by freealonzo Highlight this comment 8

Camp Randall also have the seatbacks that can be purchased by season ticket holders.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 08:11 AM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 9

Good take CJ

As an 'outsider' (not from MN but have lived here for last 8 years) you never really heard much about the U's athletic facilities. Now suddenly, with the "golden triangle" of TCF, Williams, and Marriucci, along with the still-great Natatorium - all within a stone's throw of each other, the U has one of the best "athletic villages" around.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 09:21 AM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 10

Great job as usual Rick!

And Happy Birthday!!

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 09:34 AM by 2bb Highlight this comment 11

Nice job, Rick. I've got my tix for Sept 12th - Can't wait!!

It's fabulous that we have a college "house" we can take pride in again. The Bank was done right - kudos to all involved.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 09:45 AM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 12

I know how Minnesotans feel about Iowa, but Iowa has the seat backs to purchase as well. I'm not a Hawkeye fan but do enjoy their football games. I'm sure glad my in-laws purchase those seat backs so I actually have a seat and don't have to go "cheek to cheek" with the person sitting next to me or fight over the fact that someone is sitting in my seat even though there would be no possible way to have them slide down unless everyone in the row lost about 20-30 pounds.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 10:45 AM by crtwinsfan Highlight this comment 13

Yeah, many colleges have those seatbacks for rent each season, and the actual back support isn't the reason you get them - it's to 'reserve' your portion of the bleacher.

That way, you get the tried and true college football bleacher experience, but with the same benefits as a seat - and the school gets some money to boot. Win-win-win.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 10:54 AM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 14

Well, Alex B. it's not just to reserve your portion of the bleacher, you get them so you get to sit on a padded seat, that's the best part. Notice in the photos, the seat cushion part flips down to keep the part you sit on dry when it rains. You flip them back into place when you get to your seat.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 11:02 AM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 15

Long time reader of this great blog, never posted before, LOVE all the work you do Rick.

One thing I found interesting that I was not expecting from the Strib interactive map was that the expandable seating is going on top of the current horseshoe. I always thought the additional seating would be closing the horseshoe cutting off the entrance to the stadium village. I'm very glad this is not the case because I love the look of the broad plaza. Now my next task is to find a friend at the U who can hook me up with some tickets to a game! Another question I have is will the stadium be accessible during non-game times and the off season? I go to school in Michigan (Hope College, I'm no Wolverine!) and I visited a friend from Ann Arbor and we were able to just walk into The Big House in the middle of February and check out the stadium, I thought this was a pretty cool thing.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 12:20 PM by MattW Highlight this comment 16

Florida does the seat thing too...

As for the expandability - closing off the endzone will be the last phase... that is a multimillion dollar view in that endzone, and a true asset to the school. what i love about this place is that it is true to what a college stadium should be. years from now, current students will bring their kids or grandkids to a game and say "when i was here, it was just the horseshoe... over there, that was added after 2019 when they made the Rose Bowl, and that section in the end zone was built in 2025 after an alum died and left millions to do it, that's why it's called the ..... section"

that's what college football is all about, if you look at the best stadiums in the game, they have a story to tell just by looking at them...

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 12:42 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 17

I can't believe they made this place without a roof. Good luck with that in November!

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 12:49 PM by other guy Highlight this comment 18

no need to worry about that, they put footings in so that they could add one in the future.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 12:58 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 19

It would be interesting to see renderings that include a 30,000 seat expansion. I was under the impression that the expansion would still keep the open end zone?

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 1:20 PM by crfire163 Highlight this comment 20

MattW,

My wife and I were able to just walk right into Cal's stadium in Berkeley and Standford's stadium in Palo Alto when we were out in the Bay Area a few years ago. In the case of Stanford, we were able to actually walk out onto the grass. It was pretty cool.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 1:57 PM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 21

I've toured TCF with Assistant AD Phil Esten and I wanted to clear up some points from posts above:
As for the expandability - closing off the endzone will be the last phase... that is a multimillion dollar view in that endzone, and a true asset to the school. what i love about this place is that it is true to what a college stadium should be. years from now, current students will bring their kids or grandkids to a game and say "when i was here, it was just the horseshoe... over there, that was added after 2019 when they made the Rose Bowl, and that section in the end zone was built in 2025 after an alum died and left millions to do it, that's why it's called the ..... section"
The open end will never be enclosed or built upon in any way. As the STrib graphic shows, the extra seating will all come from placing an additional deck of seats stretching from the 101/201 side (by the huge scoreboard) all the way around to the press box. This can be done in 10K segments.
no need to worry about that, they put footings in so that they could add one in the future.
Not sure if this comment was tongue in cheek, but there will never be a roof on TCF. However, the footings comment is sort of right as the footings for the upper deck are already in place. This way, any 3rd deck seating will match seamlessly to the outside of the stadium to prevent the erector set look that most expanded college stadiums get.
It would be interesting to see renderings that include a 30,000 seat expansion. I was under the impression that the expansion would still keep the open end zone?
To my knowledge, they've never publicly release any of the expansion renderings.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 2:01 PM by GoAupher Highlight this comment 22

"I can't believe they made this place without a roof. Good luck with that in November!"

Yeah, cause the temp might drop down to around 50 degrees!!! How SOFT have we become in this state?

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 2:20 PM by Fred Highlight this comment 23

I had heard that the original TCF stadium plans called for the horseshoe to be built on a turntable so that it could be rotated on windy days that would allow the Gophers side of the field to always be "with the wind." But I suppose you couldn't do that with roof supports anchored to the ground on one end and the top of the stadium on the other.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 2:29 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 24

speaking of the other more visible tennant of the Metrodome, the Vikings, what are anyones thoughts about renovating the Metrodome instead of completely tearing down and rebuilding. a year or so ago there was a plan presented by Ellerbe Beckett that I thought was pretty feasible and attractive. click my name for link.

I suppose with the Twins and the Gophers getting brand new stadiums, the Vikings don't want to have a spiffed up remake of the existing facility, but since the Metrodome is essentially a football stadium, I think this plan is very reasonable to bring the Metrodome up to 2012 standards. The Vikings would be sure to capture most of the revenue if the right deal is in place for them, since they would be the primary tenant.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 2:58 PM by Dan Highlight this comment 25

It appears on camera 2 just below the end of the canopy in the lower level there is a section that is having seats removed as well.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 3:03 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 26

More specifically, section 105-ish.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 3:06 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 27

I think "other guy" was just teasing and seeing who might bite. I hope. Target Field web cam 2 is out.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 3:27 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 28

If memory serves the Minnesota Sports Facilities Commision proposed a plan of renovating the dome to be football only and the price tag on that was just under a billion dollars. If you are going to spend that much money just build a new one.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 3:57 PM by PNB19 Highlight this comment 29

regarding rebuilding, I am not an architect or structural or any other kind of engineer, but it seems to me the cost of tearing the Metrodome down to its foundation, only to rebuild it would be extremely expensive and also somewhat wasteful. In the era of "green this" and "green that" , I would think there would be more of an effort to find a solution that would include using as much of the foundation and lower bowl of the current Metrodome as possible. With the design of the TF, XL and TCFBS being so well done, certainly they could do something creative with the existing Metrodome footprint.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 4:07 PM by Dan Highlight this comment 30

The push for a "New" design is a seating issue. The dome does not meet the NFL's requirements for getting a super bowl. If the Dome was dressed up they couldn't add many, if any seating to the lower bowl.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 4:16 PM by PNB19 Highlight this comment 31

joking or not......"other guy" still wins today’s "dumbest comment of the day" award. "the truth hurts", you sir have been usurped......sorry.

anyways, i guess they better add a roof to the college football stadiums in madison, east lansing, ann arbor & iowa city then as their game-time temps in november are in roughly the same range as minneapolis.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 4:27 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 32

personally, i am not for reusing any parts of the metrodump. other than two world series in '87 and '91 that place has been nothing but a craphole from a competitive advantage stand-point. sure it might get loud sometimes. my dream would be to see the vikings go fully outdoors again. playing in mid to late december outdoors would be a REAL and legit competitive advantage like it was in the 60's & 70's at the old met stadium.

that being said. i understand the political realities probably won't allow that type of design to occur, which is very unfortunate.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 4:32 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 33

since today's post from rick is in regards to the new gopher football stadium i thought i would include a link to a very cool photo i found on the internet. i guess sometime last night the U of M had all 5,000 plus incoming freshman come over to the new brickhouse for a "class of 2013" photo where they all formed a giant block "M" on the football field. sounds like they also had coach brewster and other football members there and were teaching them both old & new gopher football cheers to follow in the new stadium on game days.

in my opinion a very cool idea and a good way to start to rebuild that gopher football/student/on-campus connection that unfortunatley seemed to get lost and perhaps skip a whole generation once they moved across town a few miles to the metrodome.

very cool pic (click on my name to see).

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 4:48 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 34

beta - any other link for that pic? you've got to be member of gopherhole to get it... it sounds amazing, I pushed for NDSU to do the same thing...

GoAupher - that was sorta my point - Ohio State did this with the ol horseshoe - but eventually, there was demand for endzone seating

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 5:48 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 35

CJ - here is a link to a U of M produced video of the forming of the "M" last night. again it was just the incoming freshman who were invited to participate.

click on my name for the youtube video.

p.s. i love the "shots" those two guys were taking at becky (a.k.a. UW) towards the end of it. sconnie turds ;-)

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 6:44 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 36

Great, great video. Thanks, Betaband.

Posted on September 4, 2009 at 11:38 PM by Rick 37

What another disaster tonight in Cleveland. First time since June 2000 this Twins team has had FOUR errors in one game.

The basic fundamentals and discipline has all but disappeared from this team this season. I have never seen more baserunning mistakes, failed bunts, mental breakdowns and lack of discipline than I have seen this year.

I am not a person to point fingers but everyone is at fault with this mess, including the front office, coaching staff, and the players themselves.

The Twins could not have been more fortunate to be opening Target Field next year, because that will be the the main reason for which fans will want to go to games. The team itself is in a mess and needs to be revamped this offseason and this may come at the expense of trading Michael Cuddyer, Jason Kubel and/or Kevin Slowey (to name a few), since they are the only players with reasonable trade value at this time (assuming Mauer and Morneau are not on the trade block). Players such as Punto, Young, Casilla, Buscher, Guerrier, Tolbert and Harris are not going to give you much value right now.

I will seriously consider dropping my season tickets after the 2010 season if this front office cannot get their act together, and I am sure I am not the only fan who will say this.

On the positive side of things, I have never been more excited for Gopher football than what I have been this year. Another great update Rick and great video Betaband!

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 12:35 AM by Mike Highlight this comment 38

Jared,

I think sec 105 is the last one they'll have to re-do (hopefully). When I commented on the removal of seats in sec 101 in the last thread, other guy correctly pointed out that section 101 had been partially installed a few months ago, followed by a long pause in seat installation. If you go back to the 1st week in July on webcam 2, you can see that sec 105 was also installed before the pause. Presumably, they used that time to fix whatever was wrong, and the seat "re-dos" should be limited to sections 101, 105, and those first few terrace level sections down the 1st base line.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 07:06 AM by Expectoroate Highlight this comment 39

Oops, spelled my name wrong

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 07:09 AM by Expectorate (aka Expectoroate) Highlight this comment 40

The Gophers have done just about everything right with TCF Bank Stadium. Given how much Joel Maturi comes off as a total goofball much of the time, that the stadium has turned out so well is even more pleasing and amazing.

I certainly hope the Vikings can get a stadium figured out, whether it reuses portions of the Metrodome or not. The utter lack of action on the part of any governmental body to even seriously discuss a solution is both upsetting and disturbing. Since 1982, the Raiders (twice), Colts, Cardinals, Rams, Browns, and Oilers/Titans have all moved due to issues that circled back to inadequate stadiums. Yet people around here seem to think the "the NFL would never let the Vikings move", a totally unrealistic viewpoint, especially since the Wilfs have zero ties to this area beyond the Vikes.

In a perfect world it would be great if the Vikings paid for all or most of a new stadium themselves, but it's unrealistic given the reality of the situation and the fact that the Twins, Wild, and Wolves (via the Target Center buyout) all play in publicly funded facilities. If a solution isn't figured out soon, the Vikes could be gone after 2011. Then of course we'll get a million different proposals and blue ribbon committees featuring the usual business leaders, all trying to do in 2013 when we don't have the NFL anymore what should be done now in 2009 to keep it.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 10:50 AM by Jorge Highlight this comment 41

I saw this discussion yesterday, and I think that the idea of reusing any portion of the Metrodome in a new stadium project is DOA -- and a bad idea to begin with. The Vikes will want, and should have, a bare patch of earth on which to build a new stadium.

And despite the sentiment for reusing the Dome site, without cooperation from the City of Minneapolis and some highly visionary planning and rethinking, the site is largely inadequate and should probably be dumped.

That is a sad statement because it held so much promise when it was selected. But one of the great lessons of the Metrodome is that without cooperation from all the public entities involved, and without some visionary thinking, leadership and planning, even the theoretically best site can become a dog.

That remains one of my biggest concerns about Target Field. Currently, the site is surrounded by a freeway, parking ramps, a garbage burner, and surface parking lots. Tell me what, from a schematic standpoint, is different about that from the Metrodome site (if you allow the power substation to stand in for the garbage burner).

Is football even a downtown sport? I think that football stadiums belong either on college campuses or out in the suburbs. There's still some great land near the MOA that is plenty big, on the LRT line, and nicely accessible to Winter Park. Just a thought.

The Vikes, of course, find themselves in a very different climate for stadiums. This may be the time when the government simply says no, and forces the team's hand. I'm up front about my prediction: They'll be in L.A. before they get a stadium here.

But if they cough up some more dough, that could be different. Government might be willing to set the table with land acquisition and tax rebates which reward the stimulus that stadium-building represents. If the team wants to know how to talk to legislators right now, they will need to use that S-word in every paragraph. Still, I think it's a long shot.

In the meantime, I do hope that the Vikings follow through on ways to make the Metrodome their own, and squeeze as much revenue as possible out the old girl. It resists renovation, but creative minds can overcome lots of obstacles. The worst thing they could do now is what happened at the Met: let the place become run-down and sad.

That approach is what stuck us with the Dome in the first place.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 11:26 AM by Rick 42

Rick - what would the MOA folk think of putting a Vikings stadium (indoor or retracto roof) across the street? My only question is if it would interfere with the airport. I like the idea - but you are right about the politics of it... there is less than zero support for a Vikings stadium at the moment.

There is a reason for this... and it's not what you might think... one - there is no money for core services at this point, so it's an impossible political task to fund a "luxury" item... but there is a second, almost bigger issue... Lester Bagley. you can't get DFLers and GOPers at the capital to agree on anything - but there is unanimity that Lester Bagley (the Vikes stadium point man) is a colossal blowhard and douchebag. saying no to him brings joy to the hearts of legislators who've been hearing his threats, veiled and overt, over the better part of this decade... and I can't really blame them, I've met the man... and he is... off putting.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 1:52 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 43

I don't think anyone has to worry or get excited about the idea of the Vikings springing for 30,000 additional seats at TCFBS. They're having a hard enough time selling out a 63,000 seat building without bringing in Brett Farve to rekindle interest among the fans.
There appears to be a formula in the NFL for seating capacities. With the exception of mid-sized markets with very loyal fans bases such as Denver, Kansas City, and Cleveland, and large markets like New York and Dallas, the majority of new NFL stadiums seem have been in the capacity range of 65,000 to 68,000 seats.
The idea is to have enough seats to enhance revenue while simultanously creating a ticket scarcity that will ensure a higher price and avoid non-sellouts that would trigger TV blackouts.
Too many cities with regular blackouts only reduces the value of the league's TV contracts. Jacksonville plays in a stadium with over 70,000 seats, yet they have been tarping over huge sections of them the past few years to reduce capacity and make sellouts easier to achieve.
The Vikings would be crazy to want an 80,000 seat facility for just that reason. Fans in other places like Green Bay and Kansas City and Denver have always been faithfull enough to their teams to buy up any seats avalable, but the market for Vikings tickets too often fluctuates with the team's on-field fortunes.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 3:40 PM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 44

The Vikes, of course, find themselves in a very different climate for stadiums. This may be the time when the government simply says no, and forces the team's hand. I'm up front about my prediction: They'll be in L.A. before they get a stadium here.

Their lease runs out in 2011, right? If I recall correctly, the Met had the Vikes on a year-to-year lease for many seasons before they built the Dome, correct?

They won't move. The NFL readily acknowledges that pro football is an ill fit in the LA area, in spite of a show-boating billionaire. They can and do capture much more revenue here than they could possible do in So Cal (of which, I'd see the Chargers more likely to move to LA than the Vikes).

Wilf bought the team a year too late. Credit to buy up the land surrounding the Dome, for better or worse, would have been easier to get. I still like the idea of a retrofitted Dome (it's gonna happen one way or another now). The infrastructure's there, with 94 near by and LRT running right past. You can't try and do this in Blaine again.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 4:56 PM by Andy G Highlight this comment 45

Rick, just for my own understanding, when you say "the site is largely inadequate and should probably be dumped.", why do you believe this is the case? What are your expectations for a site for the Vikings stadium? The only one I can obviously think of is lack of parking to allow for tailgating. The Ellerbe Becket plan addressed the possible development that a new/revised Metrodome would bring to the Downtown East area.

Perhaps I just have my purple-colored glasses on, but if the Vikings move, I would be very surprised if it was to the LA area, and I don't know of another city that would be a good fit to sufficiently support an NFL franchise for the long term. (If there are some cities that I am overlooking, please let me know). The state of California has budgetary problems far worse than Minnesota, and of the teams that have moved, 3 of them have moved AWAY from the LA area. Unless something has changed, I just don't think they have fan and local business interest to support an NFL franchise.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 5:04 PM by Dan Highlight this comment 46

Yeah, I'd also like to hear why you think the Dome site isn't good, Rick.

The fact is simple: If the Vikes want to put a roof on this thing and attract Final Fours and all those other events, then it needs to be downtown. If they want an open-air stadium, then put it out in the suburbs, like Gillette.

As far as vision, thinking, and planning - I think you vastly oversell the part that stadiums play in those places. The North Loop will be a great area in the future with or without Target Field. The area around the Dome would have failed with or without the Dome - that's a legacy of failed urban renewal, etc.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 5:24 PM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 47

With the $250 million the Vikings were going to put towards a new stadium, they could make a lot of improvements at the Metrodome!

I know they want a bigger/better stadium with more suites, but there is no political will to pony up $750 million of taxpayer money with the State facing a $7 Billion deficit in the 2011/2012 budget cycle.

All they do by threatening to leave is make me want to say good riddance. If the Vikings want a new stadium, they have to get public support behind a dedicated Sales Tax, preferably Metro wide, or State wide. And they are going to have to be willing to pay more than 1/4 of the cost.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 5:58 PM by David_Mpls Highlight this comment 48

i love how some minnesotans think they are actually going to be "the ones" who change the landscape of financing what are really public assets - stadiums. it is a public/private partnership almost 99% of the time people. and to somehow expect the ownership group to front 50% or more of the capital cost is asinine and unrealistic.

david_mpls - i don't ever recall zygi wilf publicly saying or threatening that he is going to move the team if he doesn't get a new stadium. those are YOUR words, perhaps the words of some in the media, but certainly not zygi wilf's words. will the team have to move due to extenuating financial circumstances if this metro and/or state doesn't figure that out, perhaps.

and david if you can honestly sit there and say "good riddance" to a longtime state asset like the vikings leaving minneapolis, well then something tells me that you are in fact not even really a vikings fan deep down, rather just a person with an opinion about the stadium situation who maybe watches vikings games every once in a while....when he has time.

sorry to be so harsh, but it is unrealistic attitudes about the situation (like you projected in your post) that annoy me to no end.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 7:15 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 49

Sales tax right now would be a complete no-go right now. What in Hennipen county, sales tax is I think at 7.275%. That's over 3/4% up from just prior to the Twins stadium bill passing. I'm getting sick and tired of trying to keep everything straight (I work for a local furniture company and if delivered you are charged sales tax for where you receive the product). It seems like it's changing (and has) every year.

As much as I would like to see the Vikings get a new stadium, it's not happening within the next five years unless Wilf either does it on the his own, or pays for the building with the state, county, city picking up the infrastructure tab. Even my more liberal co-workers thinks it's ridiculous how much taxes have gone up over the last few years. Like David says we're looking at large cuts in a massive deficit, and wouldn't be shocked to see taxes raised even MORE to cover that.

The vikings have to start looking at the local counties not named Hennipen and try to get something done, and hope the recession ends soon.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 7:33 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 50

i thought the ellerbe becket proposal was to basically just re-use one wall of the metrodome and build everything else new.
http://www.msfc.com/tour.cfm
my understanding of the LA situation is that the stadium in the city of industry, CA will be entirely privately financed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Stadium

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 7:34 PM by nick Highlight this comment 51

I gotta admit that the los angeles stadium designs do look pretty sweet...but the vikings need to stay here, move the bills or somebody, NY already has two teams

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 9:29 PM by Deenels Highlight this comment 52

Well Beta, I guess we are all entitled to our own opinion.

You wrote:
it is a public/private partnership almost 99% of the time people. and to somehow expect the ownership group to front 50% or more of the capital cost is asinine and unrealistic.

Did I say it should not be a public/private partnership? Did I say the owners should pay 50%? NO, I did NOT.

In my opinion, if they want a BILLION dollar stadium, they have to do better than 25%.

The Gophers spent $300 million, and the State paid half. The Twins spend $500 million, and the County paid 2/3. The Vikings want $1 BILLION, and want the taxpayers to cover 3/4 of it?

In my opinion, you also have unrealistic attitudes about the situation if you think they should only pay 25%.

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 10:39 PM by David_Mpls Highlight this comment 53

I ceased to invest emotion in the Vikings more than a decade ago. That being said, I still believe the Vikings are an important state asset. It's one of those things that identify us all everywhere in the nation. I'd hate to see them leave.
While the LA market may seem inviting to many owners trapped in bad stadium situations, moving one or two teams into City of Industry (The potential investors in the stadium development would like to see a shared stadium complex) would do little to enhance the league's bargaining position with the TV networks. When LA had two teams, the TV ratings fluctuated very little depending on whether the teams were winners or losers. NFL football consistently underperformed in the Greater Los Angeles market. People were simply too disinterested in driving all the way to Anaheim or venturing into the rather dodgy Coliseum neighborhood to attend games. With far more enjoyable weather in the later months than most places, Angelenos were much less inclined to spend their Sundays indoors watching TV.
Even so, the league eyes the demographics of that market like a mouse looks at cheese in a trap. It looks risky, but they can't afford to turn their backs on more money. I'm sure someone will take the plunge if the C of I project gets done. I only hope it's not the Vikings. The Jacksonville Jaguars, perhaps?

Posted on September 5, 2009 at 11:53 PM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 54

Does anyone know how much money the state gets from Viking players/coaches/staff/FO/Admin/etc. in income taxes? It must be a lot.

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 09:17 AM by Brandon Highlight this comment 55

The manner in which people dismiss Los Angeles as an NFL market is shortsighted. There were a number of extenuating circumstances behind the departure of the Rams and Raiders after the 1994 season, but the common denominator was stadium trouble. The Coliseum Commission had reneged on promises to significantly renovate the Coliseum. The Rams were lured to Anaheim in part by promises of being allowed to develop part of the stadium's parking lot with business and retail buildings, a promise that was subsequently reneged upon. The idea that the Rams had trouble drawing due to their West Los Angeles fans not wanting to make the long and jammed drive to Anaheim is true, but USC’s attendance over the past few years shows that fans will enter the Coliseum’s neighborhood to see an elite level team, something the Raiders largely weren’t after 1985.

The NFL also didn't want the Raiders to leave Los Angeles (it approved of the Rams leaving), but Al Davis moved the team anyway without consent and has largely regretted it since. The NFL designed the expansion round that created the Houston Texans as a means for putting a team in LA. The new team, surprisingly, only went to Texas when competing groups for the franchise in LA canceled each other out and the Los Angeles area politicians once again botched putting a stadium deal together. The idea that the NFL doesn't want a team in Los Angeles is a fantasy that various people in places like Minnesota, San Diego, Jacksonville, and Buffalo choose to believe in instead of taking the necessary measures to protect their teams. There is enough money and interest in Los Angeles that an NFL team will be there once the stadium situation is resolved, something the City of Industry project may finally accomplish.

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 12:40 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 56

Man it's hard watching the Twins continually lose to garbage teams like the Indians. The Twins offense is anemic right now. Mroneau should take the first two months off then start his season in June and maybe he could do something in the stretch drive. The Twins have about 4 good hitters(Mauer,Morneau,Span,and Kubel) I hope they spend some money this offseason i'm so tired of this mediocrity approach o Bill Smith. Alright I am done venting!

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 2:12 PM by firedog Highlight this comment 57

Come to the site everyday and post once in a blue moon but I was just wondering if anybody had any extra tickets to the Gophers football game this coming Saturday that they were looking to sell. Just thought I'd try my luck finding some here. I'll be in town next weekend for the Twins vs A's. I'll be coming from Grand Forks, ND and thought if I could find some football tickets, my weekend would be pretty set.

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 3:22 PM by nikc Highlight this comment 58

nikc: I have 4 seats with a parking pass for the Gophers/Air Force game that I don't think I'll be able to use. I sat in them for the scrimmage and they are excellent. Let me know if you are interested.

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 4:10 PM by Max Highlight this comment 59

max - I am looking for two more additional tickets for the Gophers game for my family. If nikc doesn't take all four, I will gladly buy (or trade you premium seats at Target Field next year) for two. If all four are available, I will take all four. Thanks

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 4:34 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 60

Hey Firedog, did you work at Circuit City?

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 5:49 PM by Ryguy213 Highlight this comment 61

From the StarTribune: they showed a thumbnail of an aerial photo of TCF Bank Stadium in the Sports section of their website on Sunday. I clicked on the photo hoping for a larger version, but it just linked to their story on how TCF Bank Stadium was designed. However, I found the link of the thumbnail, figured out the original photo link (the thumbnail link included scaled parameters), and found an amazing aerial shot from the August 22 practice.

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 8:15 PM by hofflalu Highlight this comment 62

Very cool photo. A couple of things:

1. You can clearly see the rooftop area where additional seating could be built.

2. You can see how the bowl was cut on the left of the photo to ensure that the former Memorial Stadium site is visible from within the stadium. That area, shown in the first photo of my post above, is also a memorial to war veterans.

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 8:26 PM by Rick 63

Here's the dude taking that picture:


Posted on September 6, 2009 at 8:32 PM by Rick 64

A+ find hofflalu! I just stopped by there this weekend to check it out. Got a few great shots of my own. Amazing facility. Threw some images up on flickr.

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 8:59 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 65

Apologies if this has been mentioned, but they've started putting the "Target Field" lettering on the rear of the scoreboard. As of this evening it reads "TAR FI".

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 9:32 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 66

My better half has pointed out that it actually reads "TAR F E".

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 9:55 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 67

Twins did not give me a good bday present and on top of that Det won too? man we cant be more then 6gb when we play det and if that is the case we gotta win them all

Posted on September 6, 2009 at 10:20 PM by The Sooj Highlight this comment 68

I don't have a ton of time right now to fully address the question of why the Metrodome site is untenable (I'm a little surprised that this isn't the conventional wisdom on the subject). But the short answer is mostly because of the interests of the Strib, other powerful land owners nearby and the City of Minneapolis.

These are the very same forces which have conspired (and I use that word intentionally and with its full implication) to keep the Metrodome neighborhood a virtual moonscape. Their financial interests have not changed, and are unlikely to change. You can put a new stadium on that land, but that's only half your problem -- especially if the municipality will deny you the right to put up, for example, your own parking ramp.

But there are also logistical problems.

The infrastructure is a mess. Surface parking lots -- a pretty bad solution to begin with -- have begun to give way to housing and other development over the past decade. There will be less and less of them over time. Freeway access is more than a generation old in each direction, and filled with kludges like the restriping of I-94 which makes it hazardous to try and merge from the Fifth Street entrance (not to mention shared access to 35W southbound and 94 westbound).

The site is also too small for a modern facility. As an example, TCF Bank Stadium by itself (not including its parking lots) would not fit on the Metrodome site, even if you also used the bus surface lot.

Zygi would be doing himself a big favor by finding a corn field out in Champlin along 610, or a big industrial site in Burnsville (I can think of one) buying that, and then working with the local governments to get some sort of favored status. He should call up Medtronic (who recently did just that along Highway 10) and Target (who did it along 610) and get the numbers of their realtors (and maybe offer a discount on naming rights).

BUT, I must reiterate that Los Angeles cannot be ruled out, if only because it's the largest single market without pro football. And it's pretty big, you know. Just because other teams, with completely different stadium and ownership situations, failed there does not mean that it is either not a football town, or some sort of bad idea.

In fact, you have to believe that in the back rooms of the NFL they are trying desperately to find a way to stop leaving all that money on the table.

Zygi is smart not to bring relocation up. That would torpedo what slim chance he has. But he has another incentive not to bring it up. Forgive me for repeating myself: When relocation is a negotiating tactic, it's all you ever hear about. When it's the actual plan, you won't hear a word until the moment it happens.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 01:54 AM by Rick 69

Here's a scale overlay of TCFBS on the Metrodome site (made easy by using Google Earth):

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 02:16 AM by Rick 70

Come to think of it, sending a bouquet of posies to those folks up in Blaine might not be a bad idea either...

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 02:30 AM by Rick 71

Some quick housekeeping:

I started a feature in the left column (you'll have to scroll up to see it) called "Fast Facts" which I intended to pack with all of those little details that people keep asking about (such as the outfield distances, fence heights, overhang stuff, etc.).

I haven't had time to flesh it out. If you have time and want to put together a list of fast facts about TF, I'll drop them into that spot. (With full credit, of course.)

I added an "ignore" feature to the comments, which will be joined soon by a "recommend/highlight" feature.

And if you hear of or have tickets available to the game on October 4, drop me a line (rick at this domain).

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 02:41 AM by Rick 72

Things aren't looking good Sooj. DET's gone 6-0 in the last week, while we've gone 3-3. We're going in the wrong direction. I'm not going to call it yet though, not definitively, because as one of the wise-old (and crabby/moody) baseball sage's down here in Chicago has said, "September is when this division is won." Hmm, maybe his GM should've taken that advice before acquiring Rios (Chicago-sized bum) and injured and injury-prone Peavy, and giving away a starting pitcher and one of the more productive DH's in the league.
But one thing I love about my Twins - they'll play their asses off for the rest of this season. They won't let it go without a fight, and since we still have 7 games left against the Tigers and 3 @ Comiskey, (and you can bet I'll be there making tons of noise with my Twins shirt and cap on, and waving my homer hanky - playoffs or not), the Central is still far from over.
We still have 10 games to play before we even see the Tigers again though. The real question is, will it be over before then?

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 03:12 AM by theloniousjoe Highlight this comment 73

Awww. No underline format? *shakes fist*

Hey Rick, great addition with the "ignore" feature. Now I won't even have to read "The Truth Hurt's" comments and get unnecessarily perturbed. Which brings me to a funny/odd idea for an addition to "the left column." Have a little "top ten offenders list" of the posters that have been ignored the most. It could motivate some people to be significantly less stupid in a very general way. I have a guess as to who would take the cake...

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 03:23 AM by theloniousjoe Highlight this comment 74

"...added an "ignore" feature to the comments"

Also known as the Truth Hurts eradicator button.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 09:12 AM by DirkDiggler Highlight this comment 75

Rick, I'm curious why you don't consider the Dome's on-site parking lots as part of the site.

I'm also not certain where you're going with parking. For one, you bemoan the lack of development and stuff around the Dome, yet you're also complaining that there's not enough parking now because it's being taken over by development?

The fact remains this: If Zygi wants a domed stadium to host a super bowl and final fours and all that jazz, there is only one site that works - the Dome.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 10:29 AM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 76

did anyone see the special section yesterday in the Star Tribune for TCFBS? Was it similar to the link that Mike posted earlier?
I was out of town this weekend, and didn't get my usual Star Tribune, instead I ended up with some "Wisconsin" paper.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 12:49 PM by luke Highlight this comment 77

I hope Zygmunt re-thinks his Blaine/Anoka County plan or else looks to the southern suburbs such as Lakeville, Burnsville, Rosemount or even Shakopee (and work something out with Canterbury?)

Another option would be to re-visit the state-run casino/racino proposals we heard about in the 1990's and use those funds to help build our roads/bridges/stadiums/schools/etc.

There are solutions out there, its just going to take some negotiating and creativity. Perhaps, the NFL needs to step up as well and help resolve this issue from their end of the spectrum rather than simply state that the Vikings need a new stadium to remain competitive.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 1:00 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 78

luke - i got the special TCF Bank Stadium/Gopher Football pull-out section in yesterday's sunday star tribune. it was around 24 color pages, had several articles, stats, facts, pictures, top moments in old memorial stadium. a few of the local pro teams also took out ads in it congratulating the gopher football program on their new home.

all around some good stuff and a nice job by the minneapolis star tribune folks on getting it done. would recommend tracking down a sunday paper if you can. i plan to keep my section for posterity.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 79

sorry mike, but i just can't agree with putting a new football stadium out on the far fringes of any side of the metro when the majority of people live towards the center of the metro area. if i live in woodbury i don't want to drive across both minneapolis & st. paul to maple grove and vice-versa. if i live in white bear lake i don't want to drive through the core cities again to go all the way to lakeville or shakopee.

imo - somewhere in or very near downtown minneapolis is the best driving & transit option for our pro sports stadiums. not far flung suburbs or ex-urban areas.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 1:35 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 80

hey max,

what would you be looking to sell those tickets for. me and some buddies are really interested but not looking to spend a fortune. hopefully we could work something out. you can e-mail me at nickklose@hotmail.com Hope to hear back from ya.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 2:01 PM by nikc Highlight this comment 81

Beta,

Not all pro sports stadiums are equal. A football stadium that's only a football stadium will host 8-10 events a year. That's not worthy of a downtown location.

Downtown is the best location for a stadium from the stadium's perspective. However, it's not the best from downtown's perspective. Other stadiums make sense downtown, as they host far more events. That's the reason that a new retractable roofed stadium must be downtown in order for that to make sense, but a regular garden variety Gillette Stadium should be out on the fringe.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 2:22 PM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 82

According to Charley Walters in yesterday's Pioneer Press, the Oct 4 game is now a 55,500 seat sellout. He also said that "all spectators will receive a commemorative certificate authenticating attendance at the game."

Good God, I hope that's not the only promotional item that night. I was thinking commemorative tickets, lanyards, seat cushions...or something a bit more substantial than - a certificate...good grief.

Maybe Rick has some intel at some of the stuff they'll be giving away that night. All I know is that crowbars won't be (but should be) allowed...lol.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 2:53 PM by luke Highlight this comment 83

How about the Brookdale site or The Crystal Airport site for the Vikings new stadium. Brookdale is all but empty, and it is a huge area with 694/94 & hwy 100 right there.
And the Crystal Airport property is even larger than the Brookdale site. ( Crystal has alegedly had their eye on this site for development, but the property is owned by the MAC). Also, Light Rail could come up on the old Great Northern tracks that are hardly ever used anymore.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 3:03 PM by hans Highlight this comment 84

Yes, Alex, I'll admit that those do seem contradictory. (I'm answering comment 76 now.)

The heart of the beef is that the area's development has been carefully staged (or stifled) over the years to benefit the powerful land owners, at each step to the detriment of the Metrodome site and the teams.

On the one hand, that's exactly how it should happen. The city should make it possible for land owners to see the maximum amount of financial gain from their investments (because it means more revenue for the city, of course). And as long as there's been a stadium there, the area has been a total cash machine for anybody with a vacant lot. But that money is coming out of the pockets of the teams whose events draw in the cars. Since most of those lots are or have been owned by the city and the Strib, they have benefited where the teams have not. (The actual details are shrouded in mystery, as backroom deals typically are.)

Even today, if you were to build a new stadium of any sort there, you would still be unable to capture any of the parking revenues (something Zygi would rightfully object to, especially if he's familiar at all with TCFBS).

(An aside: Obviously, the site includes the bus parking lot, but if you need that area for the stadium, where are you going to stage those buses and have your "plaza" space? It's not an insurmountable problem, of course, but it has financial implications.)

If all this talk makes you wonder about parking at TF, you're not alone. It remains one of my concerns about the development of the neighborhood around the stadium because it affects so many other things.

The city controls the ABC ramps and will object to any development which might take away from that revenue (conversely, they will want to encourage any development which might push more parking into those ramps). Hines owns the big lot to the north and may find that parking revenue is sufficient return on their investment in the land, or they may want to develop something there but put a big parking ramp beneath it -- to which the city might not respond with cooperation. The Twins control the parking to the south (along with development rights), and it's hard to see what might motivate them to build on that land if it disrupts the parking revenue stream (some of that lot is reserved for staff and players, the rest is for big-ticket fans).

I can imagine all sorts of scenarios for the neighborhood, some good, some not. Once again: Wrigleyville it ain't.

Revenue is a very powerful, complicated, and essentially the only motivator in any of these decisions, but it's hard to predict what will happen over at TF. The most attractive option may not be the most profitable. And the most profitable (as at the Dome) may not be very attractive.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 3:14 PM by Rick 85

Alex,

I also want to acknowledge what you're saying about roofed versus open air. If the goal is to put on a roof and attract additional events, the downtown location may trump these revenue concerns (though I'd be a little surprised if the numbers actually worked out that way).

But when I'm talking about the Vikings, I'm working under the assumption that they are focused on building a facility for their own events, and only giving lip service to the possibility of attracting others. By saying such things, people (read: legislators) can hear and imagine other sorts of revenues which can be used to justify decision-making. I don't think that's really what the Vikes want when all is said and done.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 3:23 PM by Rick 86

Anyone else not seeing the ignore feature on the posts?

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 3:50 PM by Eric Highlight this comment 87

Nevermind, I just posted and then they were there. gotta love Google Chrome

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 3:51 PM by Eric Highlight this comment 88

hey rick-for the fast facts you still got TBA on exhibition games opp, unless editing that is one of the thinks you are flushing out

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 4:15 PM by The Sooj Highlight this comment 89

I have offered my 4 lower level seats plus parking pass for Saturday's Gophers Game against Air Force to Nick. I haven't heard back from him. If anyone else is interested just provide your email address and I'll contact you.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 7:03 PM by Max Highlight this comment 90

I would be interested. Not sure about 4 tickets. I could use two for sure, would take all four if that's the way you want to deal with it though.

click my name to contact.

DEC

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 8:39 PM by freealonzo Highlight this comment 91

Max - I have interest in the Gopher tickets. Please email me at kirk@mm.com

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 7:36 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 92

are you offering tickets for another game this season? I can't make it this Saturday (too much going on, but I'll watch it on BTN), but maybe another game...
But let me know what you're offering...who knows. Plans can be changed. click my name for my email.
Thanks.

Posted on September 7, 2009 at 9:34 PM by luke Highlight this comment 93

According to WCCO the Twins will make an official annoucement of a new bar/restaurant at Target Field today. I bet it Hrbek's!!

Charley Walters at Twincities.com sheds a little light on the new restaurant. Click my name for entire story.

"The Minnesota Twins will announce Tuesday that one of their bar-restaurants inside Target Field will be named Hrbek's, after the popular former Twins first baseman from Bloomington.

Hrbek mentioned last week that the pub's specialty will be, simply, "beer."

The Twins came to Hrbek with the proposition of naming the pub after him. It will be located behind home plate on street level and include an outside patio.

Just above Hrbek's in the stadium will be another bar-restaurant named after a former Twins great, Harmon Killebrew's 573 Club, honoring the hall of famer's 573 career home runs.

While Hrbek's will have more of a beer emphasis, Killebrew's will have a cocktail emphasis. Both themes represent the players' personalities.

Hrbek will have a personal table for his use, and it won't be uncommon to see Hrbek stationed at his regular spot in the pub, much the same as the beloved Norm Peterson did in TV's "Cheers."

In Baltimore, the Orioles' Camden Yards ballpark has an outdoor BBQ area operated by former first baseman and legend Boog Powell. Powell's place, though, is open-air.

Hrbek's, except for the patio area, will be enclosed and include Hrbek memorabilia and assorted jerseys on walls. Hrbek and wife Jeanie have had input with the décor.

Target Field will also include a Town Ball Tavern, located down the left-field line. There will also be a Twins Pub on the stadium's terrace level, as well as a Metropolitan Club for season-ticket holders."

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 08:36 AM by Jeff Highlight this comment 94

Is this possibly in reference to the Twins? I found this quote on uniwatchblog.com, a site by ESPN's Paul Lukas.

"I’ve seen all the new MLB designs for next season and can report that another team is going to have a powder blue alternate jersey, plus one team is adding a powder blue alt cap. And no, I can’t say anything more than that, so don’t ask."

Hmm...only time will tell...

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 08:42 AM by Josh Highlight this comment 95

It's kind of funny that the one with "Brew" actually IN their name will have an empahisis on cocktails.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 08:51 AM by DeePee Highlight this comment 96

Funny rumor about the powder blue hat...I've seen the MLB memo. There's two caps being added next year

GIANTS: Orange bill with Black top (alternative)
TWINS: Red bill, navy cap with same TC logo. ALSO, keeping the "M" cap in the rotation

So there you have it.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 09:15 AM by uniform bird again Highlight this comment 97

Oh, and there were something like 35 options given to the Twins to redesign the caps. They wanted to stick with the same ones.

But you didn't hear that here. I don't exist.

Let's hold off on talking about jerseys for a bit though :)

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 09:19 AM by uniform bird again Highlight this comment 98

Yuck with the powder blue.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 09:21 AM by Boof Highlight this comment 99

I was flipping through channels last night and stopped on "Dirty Jobs" on the Discovery Channel. Mike Rowe was in a train, and when they showed an outside shot of the train, it was none other than the Northstar train. I tried finding the episode to link to, but that episode did not have a clip available. However, in the event they put it up at some point, it was the 200th episode dated Feb 17, 2009. I'm not a big mass transit fan, but I thought some of you might like to see it.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 09:28 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 100

Can we please stop turning this blog into StubHub?

I like to read my Gophers, err.. Vikings, err.. Twins stadium posts uninterrupted. Thanks.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 09:29 AM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 101

Found out something pretty cool today. A friend of mine went on a tour of TF last weekend, and I guess that after each inning one of the topiary bats in the plaza will light up after each inning is complete.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 09:52 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 102

the twins red bill cap was already in use i thought. oh whatever. check out the minnpost site today for a nice target field article from Doug Grow.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:02 AM by tim Highlight this comment 103

Has the area just north of the Crosstown/35W junction been mentioned for a possible vikes stadium site? Not sure what all sits there or what could be moved, im not real familiar with that area...but it would be an excellent location with plenty of highway access, close to the airport and not too far from downtown

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:03 AM by Miller Highlight this comment 104

I never paid attention to the number of topiary bats. Sure enough there are nine! What a great touch. I really like that. Thanks trosy29!

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:04 AM by DeePee Highlight this comment 105

Some pics from that tour. He was mainly took pics of our seat locations, but still pretty cool.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:06 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 106

I read someone mentioning possible locations for a new Vikings stadium....my idea would be the current location of Brookdale. I think you could put a stadium and plenty of parking in that parcel. You would also be close to three major arteries: Hwys 100, 694 and 94.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:49 AM by Fred Highlight this comment 107

New aerial photo from ballparkauthority.com. Click my name.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 11:05 AM by Jeff Highlight this comment 108

Seems to me the 35W/62 intersection would involve purchasing alot of residences, as well as a fair amount of businesses. That is just one consideration that would likely eliminate this location. Brookdale would probably be a better spot based on this consideration, but I don't know if the footprint is large enough, and I am not tech-savvy enough to do an overlap of footprints of Metrodome or TCFBS over the current Brookdale site.I think Blaine or Shakopee would be better for a non-downtown site, in my opinion.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 11:06 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 109

Nice pics, Trosy.

The bats lighting up is a nice touch.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 11:39 AM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 110

If the Vikings get a stadium (and I'm with Rick in that the most likely scenario is a move), it should be built near high-capacity transit. That eliminates anything along 610 or in Lakeville. Brookdale doesn't quite work with the Bottineau line (it's too far east). Something out in Eden Prairie could work with the Southwest line. I don't know if St. Louis Park would go for a stadium. The sand pits in Maple Grove is another possibility.

The east metro is essentially out of the game as there's no planned high-capacity transit investment scheduled there until at least 2020 and probably much later. There's a variety of reasons for this but lack of interest from Washington county is a big one.

In any event, as I've said before, I won't shed a tear if the Vikings leave. The college game is more fun and I'm sure not willing to spend $750 million or more public dollars on a football stadium. For that amount of money we can do another light rail line and another commuter rail line in the east metro that will be used much more often by more people than a new stadium.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 12:09 PM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 111

I have a pic of the dome over the Brookdale site but don't know how to post pics. Any ideas?

It would easily fit...
Couldn't find an up to date TCFBS Google Maps shot at 500 Ft. That's what I used for both the Dome and Brookdale.

I was all excited to have it and can't post it...Arrrrgggg

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 12:35 PM by MarkW Highlight this comment 112

That whole area needs to be revitalized anyways, I think it's a great location...You'd think Brooklyn Center would love to attract something that people actually want to come see again.

Plus, that property is going to be vacant soon the way it's going...

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 12:37 PM by MarkW Highlight this comment 113

Article about Jerry Jones and a new Vikings stadium...

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 12:48 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 114

david - we can't do both can we? it can only be one or the other right? why do many in this state seem to think that way (i.e. everything is always in "either this or that scenarios.")

please don't give me another sob story about state budget deficits. the MN state gov't (in my opinion stupidly and sometimes to its own detriment) makes the choice to force itself into a balanced budget scenario/showdown cycle-after-cycle unlike some other states who will allow themselves to go into some debt for a few years at a time if there are infrastructure projects, state asset projects, etc. that are worth doing now and not later.

everything does not always have to be mutually exclusive from each other.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 1:21 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 115

Beta,

I'm not sure if you're replying to me, but the state constitution mandates a balanced biennial budget. If you want to change that you'll have to pass an amendment.

I'll agree with you that Pawlenty's

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 1:39 PM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 116

Beta,

I'm not sure if you're replying to me, but the state constitution mandates a balanced biennial budget. If you want to change that you'll have to pass an amendment.

I'll agree with you that Pawlenty's policies have forces unnecessary showdowns with the legislature. Why the man can't understand that a mix of tax increases and spending cuts is the only viable solution is beyond me. That and the fact that he refuses to factor inflation into the budget is simply irresponsible.

Oh yeah, he's running for president. He's been checked out of the state for several years now.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 1:41 PM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 117

Scaffolding by the crown is finally coming down. That will open up the view from cam 2 at least a little bit.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 2:28 PM by DeePee Highlight this comment 118

The navy hat with red bill sounds like the batting practice cap for this year.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 2:43 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 119

Best blog comment of the day:

"Let's hope the late season moves by Bill Smith will fool not only rube fans into thinking the Twins tried to win, but Joe Mauer as well."

Second best has something to do with the Yankees being smart enough to bat Mauer #2 in 2011.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 3:01 PM by Twinznut Highlight this comment 120

trosy29, those were great pictures and views. Can you tell me what section that is in? 121, maybe 10th to 15th row? How was the ballpark angle? Better than the Dome, I assume?
thanks

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 3:45 PM by robin Highlight this comment 121

trosy, were the actual seats articulated in those field box seats in the corners? I know the sections obviously are articulated but I still have not heard a confirmation whether or not the actual seats are articulated.

It's difficult to see from the pictures I have seen so far.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 122

Robin. Nice work. Section 121 Row 16. From that section the angles are perfect. Every seat is going to be better than the dome.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 3:51 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 123

Mike. I actually did not take those pics. The last time I was at the stadium, there were no seats installed, so I couldn't really say. My buddy took the pics. But if you look at the second to last picture, you can clearly see that the seats themselves are articulated towards the infield. IF you look at the back of the seats, the top does not form a straight line so that means they each have a slight angle. I'm pretty positive that is section 104.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 124

Hey, trosy. Thought I'd check out the site. Pretty cool. Obviously many people excited about the new stadium. Rightly so, it is going to be something everyone in MN will want to experience.

Mike, are you asking about the very corner sections in the outfield? The ones with the cement bleachers? If so, I did not see any seats listed on them, if you look at the picture I tried to take of the bullpen in center field you can see the box seats below. No seats shown as of now. That's not to say they won't paint something on in the future. I suspect they will.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 4:26 PM by bshaw Highlight this comment 125

bshaw - I think Mike is talking about the seat in sections 124-127 and 101-104. Was I right with what I wrote in the previous comment?

Also, did they say on the tour that they are going to be cement bleachers in the outfield where that pic is from?? I thought they would at least put some aluminum ones there like at TCFBS.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 4:34 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 126

Ahh, I see what you mean about the second to the last picture now, and yes, your previous post is correct.

You're right, they are installing actual bleachers at least in left field. Not sure if it will be bleachers in right field though. I thought Mike was asking if you could tell where the actual seats will be in those sections. Sorry for the confusion.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 4:56 PM by bshaw Highlight this comment 127

I'm an aesthetic detail kind of person, and wondered if anyone (probably Rick) knows of any handouts at the final game on Oct. 4. I know Walters in Sunday's Pioneer Press said that "All will get a commemorative certificate." but, come on, can't we have something a bit more substantial??
And I'm bummed to find out that STH's are the only ones who get these "Final Game" oversized tickets...when all 55,500 people in attendance should get one of those...

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 6:25 PM by luke Highlight this comment 128

moving a stadium out of a city and into the suburbs is a big mistake. in my Detroit experience, it can work if the team is always good (Pistons) but not if they're always bad (Lions). Of course, if you don't win any games being downtown might not even save you (not that Detroit's downtown is phenomenal, but hey it's getting better).

For reasons other people have stated (transportation, access, restaurants/bars, tourism, etc) it is important to have a strong core. Downtown this last weekend - dead. Had to go to the MOA to pick up some things since there is limited shopping downtown (I know, I know, I feel dirty just being there) and it was PACKED. Made me want to cry. At least it's near the airport and I can take the lightrail there. Little has been said about this mega-millions St. Louis Park shopping mall that will continue to erode downtown Minneapolis.

Anyone think of existing sports stadiums that work better in the suburbs? I'm sure there are some but I think would be a huge disaster here with the urban sprawl we already have.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 6:48 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 129

I didn't even realize that the topiaries were supposed to be baseball bats. That's one of the coolest things I've noticed in a while. Over and over again, I keep being surprised at "little touches" like Doug Grow was talking about in his column today. And over and over again, my feeling that this is just going to be one of the best places in the world to watch a baseball game continues to be reinforced. We are damn lucky baseball fans, us Twins fans!

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 7:02 PM by theloniousjoe Highlight this comment 130

Does anyone know who was doing the play-by-play in the first 3 innings? It didn't sound like Jack to me. Have I been living under a rock?

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 7:12 PM by theloniousjoe Highlight this comment 131

Wow! You mean the bat-shaped objects in the plaza are supposed to represent bats? And I suppose those large humanoid-shaped objects that will be in front of the gates will be statues? Wait - Target Field is a STADIUM? Holy C-rap! "Hey look everybody! We landed on the moon!" (quoting the great Jim Carrey)

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 8:13 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 132

trosy29, you are correct, I was referring to the "field box seats" which are sections 101-103 and 125-127.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 8:42 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 133

Just to be clear, if we're going to do a Vikings stadium it should be downtown. No question about that. mplsgreg is right on about a strong core.

But if we make the mistake of doing it in the suburbs it should at the very least be accessible by a transit system that can handle high capacity ridership.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 8:50 PM by David Highlight this comment 134

So it now appears "Gate 14" is going to be the home plate entrance to coincide with Hrbek's restaurant rather than the "Gate 6" as originally planned?

Plaza - Gate 34
Right Field - Gate 3
Home Plate - Gate 14
Left Field - Gate 6
Center Field - Gate 29

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 8:56 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 135

Well, I can see that my question was pretty insignificant, as it hasn't been answered, for the second time now. We're all talking about gate numbers again.

Oh well, I'll try another day I guess.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 9:11 PM by luke Highlight this comment 136

Luke - they usually give out calendars for fan appreciation weekend and I know they plan on 2010 Target Field calendars for this year.

The Twins knew they would most likely (and they did) sell out the final game on October 4, so why have a big promotion when you are going to sell out? Afterall, the idea of promotions are to get people to the ballpark when attendance might not be as strong. When you know you are going to sell out, there is no need for a promotion.

Hopefully the commemorative certificate is worthy, if not, I will always have my ticket stub and a game program from the final game. I still have my Cal Ripken Jr 3000th hit ticket stub/certificate from that April 2000 game as well.

I am a STH and have not hear anyting regarding "oversized tickets" for the final game. Where did you hear that? Perhaps I am missing something.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 9:41 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 137

mplsgreg - I'm not sure if I can think of suburban stadiums that worked either. Detroit comes to mind for me as well.

The Redskins play in Landover, MD - not sure why, I mean, they could have torn down RFK (which is still standing) and built a new one there. I'm not sure if the Landover situation "works" for the 'Skins. The NBA/NHL teams out there played in Landover as well, but then moved to downtown DC. The Jets/Giants play in E Rutherford, NJ, probably only because there's no room in NYC.

The Rams, when they were in LA (well, Anaheim, which is a suburb of LA) actually did more than move downtown, they moved downtown - in another city.

Not sure if it works for the KC Chiefs and Royals. It seems to, they play outside of Kansas City, not necessarily in a suburb, but they don't play downtown either. Their stadiums are in a very hidden place off of I-435 on the southern side of KC.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 9:47 PM by luke Highlight this comment 138

Mike - click my name, this is an eBay listing with a pic of the oversized tickets.
If you scroll down (this auction only has 20 hours left) to the comments asked to the seller, one of them, he mentions that the person he got the tickets from was an STH.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 9:50 PM by luke Highlight this comment 139

luke - season tickets are printed out before the season even starts and are sent out to STH's all at once. obviously they did the last game tickets on special stock, but you can't truly expect them to print walk-up, single game tickets for non-STH purchases after-the-fact on the same commemerative stocks as season tickets which go out in a complete ticket package.

but you are right luke STH's who shell out lots of money for their tickets shouldn't get anything unique for their loyalty, commitment and money should they?! come on luke. ;-)

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 9:58 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 140

Sigh, what do you think my two front row seats would fetch for the 2nd. My bet $15 Bucks a seat. I'm closer to the left fielder too. My ticket's for the 2nd are oversized over the standard walk up tickets, but this seems exceptionally large, obviously a 40 game or full-season package.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:19 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 141

I know Beta - but, I know teams have handed out special tickets with the date printed (or some other thing like "VIP") in the spots where the seat assignments go - usually in exchange for the actual, run-of-the-mill ticket (click my name for the NY Mets example). I could be amiss however, that practice could be more common when new places open, as opposed to the old ones being vacated.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:26 PM by luke Highlight this comment 142

Was this discussed, surprised this is the first I heard one of the nine topiary bats will light up each inning.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:33 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 143

A major hope the Vikings have on the stadium front is tied to the fact that the construction industry in the Twin Cities is absolutely on its ass. There are fewer jobs and thus more construction workers who are out of work. Many of the contracting firms bidding jobs have to severely underbid just to get projects and then must make up for bidding low by hiring fewer workers for their jobs in order to make things pay. With the completion of TCF Bank Stadium and the closer Target Field gets to completion, two more major projects will be finished and thus more workers will be on the sidelines instead of on the job. There are some firms that worked as subcontractors on the two stadiums that would literally be at death's door or completely out of business if not for those two projects carrying them through. If the unions get behind a new Vikings stadium enough, it may be the push that gets things going in the legislature since there are elements in the DFL that would get behind something the construction unions support.

This next part is likely to be unpopular. I love TCF Bank Stadium and have Gopher football season tickets, but to have built that before taking care of the Vikings was utter madness. The Vikings can leave. The Gophers can't. You do what you have to do to maintain the resource you're more likely to lose, plain and simple, and the state blew it on that front. And, truth be told, the new on campus stadium won't cure the fundamental illnesses that have plagued the Gopher football program since the late 1960s. Longshot though it seems, the Vikes will play in another Super Bowl long before the Gophers ever make another Rose Bowl. Had real attention been paid to a Vikings stadium in the early 2000s, it would be done by now and at a fraction of the cost of whatever stadium will be built for the Vikings or the NFL team Minnesota politicians and business leaders try to attract after the Vikes are gone.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:38 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 144

Maybe they will continue this year's tradition where one Twins' pitcher is lit up each inning.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:51 PM by Jim Highlight this comment 145

The home opener tickets this season were also oversize. Probably not for those who joined up, or paid up, after the printing and initial shipping was done.

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:52 PM by robin Highlight this comment 146

Jorge, a little insight from a contractor working with stadium lobbyists... here's how that went down:

In 2003-2004 the Twins, in their long-running quest to move a stadium bill through switched to the current rapid park site owned by LPII... at the same time, the Vikings unveiled Valhalla, a $1.2 billion venture in Blaine, that would have included a hospital, retail, etc... and the Gophers began stirring about moving back to campus.

The idea at the time was to get everyone moving and everything built by 2010, and blow up the dome at that time. One of the ideas we kicked around was an "arts corridor" from the new guthrie site back in to downtown past the dome and incorporating the armory as a performance space.

Problem was... at the time, there was plenty of opposition to the Twins and Gophers... but the Vikings plan was practically DOA at the capitol. Politically speaking, the Gophers are seen as a state asset along with their university... voting against TCF Stadium would have been political suicide. That, and the Gophers and the Twins too, had their collective act together far more than the Vikings.

Combine all of that with the fact that at the time, the Twins were winning division titles and packing the dome and the Gophers were a perennial bowl team... meanwhile, right in the middle of this debate the only thing the Vikings were known for was the "love boat" scandal and Randy Moss hitting a cop with his car...

It was a perfect storm in 2006, when the Twins and Mike Opat put together a bill that provided perfect political cover, and the Gophers presented to the legislature that they were ahead on their private fundraising for the project, had a naming sponsor and a site in hand... the legislators sailed the Gopher bill through with members begging to be co-sponsors - the Twins fight was more cantankerous until we shocked the Tax Committee at a public hearing in Bloomington - flooding the place with hundreds of Twins fans including Hrbek, Oliva and others... (if you got an email urging you to go or contact your rep that wasn't from the Twins... you got my work)

Posted on September 8, 2009 at 11:59 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 147

to close the loop on a long post - in '06 the Vikings walked in to their meetings with the legislature expecting support because they were the biggest game in town, and they might move... the problem was, the messenger, Lester Bagley, played the "move" card hard, and too early. the legislators, rightly i might add, felt the Vikes were blackmailing them... then they called their bluff... and at the time, they were bluffing... not helpful in future endeavors.

there is still a TON of bad tidings at the legislature toward the Vikings over that - and, (and i know beta will scream) good luck convincing anyone to foot a billion dollar stadium bill in this economy... the state is broke, the counties don't have the clout... well HC does... but they ain't interested.

Wilf is no fool, he's a real estate investor, he's patient. As for the "looming threat of a move"... until there is another NFL stadium in a major market out there... the Vikings have nowhere to go. If you think the political will in MN is weak for this - it's worse in Los Angeles or Portland (the only two places they could possibly go at the moment) I would take some solace in that, and watch for plans to surface eventually - it will happen at some point, but right now the timing is just all kinds of wrong.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM by CJ Highlight this comment 148

Found something interesting and just curious if anyone would go for it for that price or any price for a supposed once in a lifetime opportunity. Click the name for the link. It was part of the local mda auction.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 12:17 AM by Leroy Highlight this comment 149

The cities and counties are in really tough shape, since their State Aid was cut. Minneapolis and Hennepin County are both talking about property tax increases next year.

The state is facing a $7billion shortfall in the 2011/2012 biennium.

If the Wilf is no fool, he will put some money into making the Metrodome as good as they can make it, and wait a few years before even mentioning the word Stadium anywhere near the legislature.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 07:09 AM by David_Mpls Highlight this comment 150

Sorry if someone has already brought this up, but I came across an interesting column by Doug Grow at the MinnPost web site. He basically admits he did a 180 on his opinion on the ballpark. He used to rip the Pohlads for being cheap and not building their own ballpark, and now he admits the whole project was worthwhile and will benefit downtown. Click my name for the link.

I am waiting for the same admission from Nick Coleman - but not holding my breath.

Jeff T.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 07:15 AM by Jeff T. Highlight this comment 151

Luke,

The twins are flat out cheap! thats why you wont get anything... that is why they hand out only 5000 promo items per given night in a stadium that holds 46k

thats why as a season ticket holder i had to pay 50 bucks for a "grab bag" of stuff they give away for free at the games anyway.

I once went to a brewer game that was sold out at miller park it was paul molly's bobble head day.. we were in the parking lot until the 2nd inning and when we walked in we all still got one, in KC last year it was Billy Buckner throwback night.. they gave out about 25k of them and yes we got one each...I have been to 18 games at the dome this year and have recived nothing

The give aways will stopp next year and they admit it already, but i guess i am just feeling lucky if i land that certifacate cuz loard knows they might only print 20k of them for the 55k that has already paid .

thanks for your time, sorry about te spelling

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 08:27 AM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 152

Again, STADIUMS ARE NOT EQUAL.

A basketball/hockey arena is very different from a baseball stadium, which is even more different from a football stadium.

Arenas occupy a relatively small amount of land and host many events. They should be in the heart of a downtown.

Baseball stadiums can take a relatively small footprint, host many events, albeit on a seasonal basis. They, ideally, would be located on the edge of a downtown or urban area - certainly within a walkable setting.

Football stadiums cost the most money and offer the least benefit to the community. They host few events, they take up huge amounts of land.

The problem is that the Jerry Joneses of the world want to make football stadiums into big arenas. Doing so in Minneapolis pretty much means the only option is to place the giant arena downtown. Putting it in Blaine is not going to work if you want to host a Final Four.

However, putting a sole, open air football stadium out in Blaine isn't such a bad idea. Yes, you want to ensure transit access for football - but the reality is, from the transit perspective, a football stadium is a poor ridership generator except for those few days with games. Gillette Stadium is far outside of Boston, and it has a commuter rail station next to it - yet that station only has service on gamedays.

It's a gross oversimplification (and ultimately wrong, in my opinion) to say that all stadiums should be downtown, ergo a Vikings stadium should be downtown.

A better compromise would be someplace out in the sticks, but near transit - such as a location along the Northstar line (or any other future commuter rail) that would allow reverse transit service on gamedays. Surround that baby with parking lots that can be used on gamedays and as park n ride lots at all other times. That's a model that works for suburban stadiums, but won't work for an urban one. It's also far more likely that the Vikes could self-finance that kind of a stadium.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 08:50 AM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 153

New DSP blog entry dated yesterday 9/8/09.... Just an FYI.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 09:27 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 154

Webcam 2 this morning shows the scaffolding coming down at the very end of the canopy.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 09:28 AM by roadwarrior Highlight this comment 155

oooooh, i like the new banner.

i went to monday's twins/jays game at the rogers centre while the roof was open and the sun was shining. that ballpark, while looking massive on tv, was actually not totally bad (granted great seats behind homeplate help with that). it was much much better than the dome and honestly i would rank it above miller park.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 12:14 PM by annoying customer Highlight this comment 156

Alex B. is correct on stadium placement. Football stadiums can survive in suburban environments due to their (relative) lack of events and need for large amounts of space.

Gillette Stadium is 28 miles from downtown Boston and does very well in drawing fans and tailgaters. That distance is the rough equivalent of a Vikings stadium being in Anoka or Lakeville.

The stadium could even succeed with other events (minus probably a Final Four) in those locations.

Downtown MPLS is a very convenient place to have a football stadium but takes away tons of revenue from the team for parking and kills the pre-game tailgating environment.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 12:37 PM by ajndsu Highlight this comment 157

Do you guys think they'll change the mowing pattern? I know it's early, but that rounded look in the outfield reminds me of the current metrodome infield....yuck!

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 1:07 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 158

ok ok enough is enough! the topiaries are going to light up one by one with each inning? why, so someone driving on 394 can see in a nanosecond see what inning the game is in? i'm sorry but this is getting stupid. stop w/ the gimmicky flair on the plaza and let this baby sing dammit.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 1:43 PM by yeahklye Highlight this comment 159

Click my name for Hrbek's photo gallery. It would be nice if we could actually see what those renderings looked like on the diplay board in picture 2.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 2:21 PM by Jeff Highlight this comment 160

Hi Rick,

An idea for future pictures: Can you take pictures around TF, but facing away from the stadium? I kind of want to see what fans would see when they leave after a game. Specifically on the 7th st side, facing towards the A Ramp (and further up 7th towards first ave), and the 5th st side, facing the Ford Center.

Thanks in advance!

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 2:49 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 161

Luke, Just wanted to correct you on the KC Royls and Chiefs Stadiums. The are located directly east of downtown KC on interstate 70, not south. Approx 12 miles from downtown. When coming by on 70, you look right into the park from centerfield. It is by no means "hidden". You'd have to blind not to see it as you drive by on interstate 70. Just needed to clarify.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 3:17 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 162

Adding onto JohnF's comment, the complex in KC is a very good example of a successful sporting complex which is not in the downtown core of its city.

There's no perfect formula, but a gigantic venue which is used only 10 or 15 times a year is essentially a waste of valuable real estate in the downtown core of any city. It can work, of course, but it is far from perfect when the foot traffic in its neighborhood is zero on all but a handful of Sundays.

The Metrodome, having been built officially for multiple teams and other uses, avoided that particular trap. A stadium for the Vikings alone on the same land would not.

And I don't think access to rail (either LRT or commuter) is all that important for a football-only facility either. While such access isn't a bad thing, the advantages it brings aren't cost effective for so few a number of events. And picking your site because of nearby transit won't eliminate the need for lots of parking anyway. In that regard, if the site has rail transit, great. If not, no big deal.

For a football stadium, I think there is something essential about Big Parking Lots.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 3:46 PM by Rick 163

DreDogg,

You're reading my mind. You'll like my next post.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 3:46 PM by Rick 164

I've highlighted (a new feature) two earlier comments from CJ regarding some history of TF and TCFBS at the Legislature (page 3, comments 147 & 148). It's important stuff to understand for anyone who hopes for a Vikings stadium anytime soon.

When so much money is involved, the impact of the economy is magnified greatly. The salient point is that Zygi has had success by being patient, and that works in Minnesota's favor if there is some indication that the issue will be taken up in earnest as soon as economic times improve.

My primary reason for pessimism is that the climate is so chilly toward the Vikings here that Zygi's patience will run out. Even given their own crisis, California may be willing to latch onto stadium-building as economic stimulus faster than Minnesota.

In the current game of stadiums, the operative word is stimulus.

Oh, and Bagley must go. Must. Go. Far. Away.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 4:04 PM by Rick 165

We're having a lot of issues trying to get the new stadium developed here. Most Los Angelinos love their college football and really don't care if we have an NFL team or not. Besides, I wouldn't even consider the Vikes to be the number one team to move to LA. I think the Chargers, Jacksonville, and the Saints are more likely to move, if the stadium ever gets built.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 4:30 PM by Lafferty Highlight this comment 166

Mazarati - you nailed it. The Twins are cheap. Either that, or they're holding out yet another "a ha" moment that will be realized once I've passed through the turnstiles for the last time.

John - when I go to KC, I actually continue down I-435 south towards Grandview, MO; I don't go on 70. Technically, I pass the complex on the west side. So, right where 35 and 70 meet, I just keep going south on 35/435. I see what you're saying though, I went on Google Maps, and you would actually get a very nice view of Kauffman from 70.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 5:20 PM by luke Highlight this comment 167

Rick,

The thing about rail transit is that it's not just one line. Let's say that Vikings do a stadium in Maple Grove. Bottineau LRT would feed it directly and by proxy so would Hiawatha and Cedar/35-W and just about every line scheduled for the east metro. Local buses feeding those lines allow people who don't live within walking distance to use the lines without ever getting into a car.

Rush Line and Southwest are a bit dodgy with respect to a Maple Grove stadium because it would likely be more convenient to drive to Maple Grove from Eden Prairir or, say, Shoreview but even for closer-in suburbs like Hopkins and St. Louis Park, people might choose to take LRT out to Maple Grove if it's convenient enough.

We have to be thinking about our transportation and development future. The era of cheap gas is over. It's only going to get more painful to drive and while EREVs and BEV's help with the fuel problem, our $50 billion highway deficit shows that accommodating single-occupancy vehicles at our current level of investment is going to be impractical into the future. We just can't sustain it. With a growing region, we have to be smart where we put major trip generators so we don't strangle ourselves and we can keep growing.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 5:22 PM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 168

wow... thanks rick.

As for LA - I know a couple of poli sci profs at fullerton, and according to them the atmosphere out there for the NFL is more toxic than here... City of Industry was working on a plan, but it fell apart pretty fast - most Angelinos don't see the stimulus value in a stadium project, especially considering they are hacking to the bone every level of service to balance their books (which they are required to do by law)

The only other place that has been talked about with any seriousness is Toronto - but they seem to be very quietly working to lure the Bills out of Buffalo

Wilf is boxed in to a certain extent, and I think he knows that - the current team is built for success in the next two years... he knows that doing what's never been done is the surest way to get movement on this idea.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 5:30 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 169

Rick,

Next time you go to the stadium could you take pictures while lying on the ground? I'd like to see the stadium from the perspective of a littered $6 souvenir cup or a puddle of urine from one of the neighborhood's homeless.

You rock, Rick!

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 5:37 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 170

How does that 'ignore' thingy work again?

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 5:51 PM by Pete C. Highlight this comment 171

Pete C.,
I totally agree.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 6:02 PM by BB Highlight this comment 172

Pete,

Go to the right of my name and click on the image of the little guy with the "x" next to him.

I'll miss your witty banter.

Sincerely,
TTH

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 6:03 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 173

The Truth Hurts - instead of Rick doing that, why don't YOU take your camera down there, and maybe, to get a true perspective, actually lie IN the puddle whilst taking the photo?

Rick takes legitimate pictures, thank you.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 6:04 PM by luke Highlight this comment 174

My boss just offered me 4 free tickets to the Sat. opener vs. AFA. Then he remembered he needs me to work this weekend. FML...

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 6:13 PM by FML Highlight this comment 175

...and I yours.

Thanks Rick for this invaluable feature.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 6:22 PM by Pete C. Highlight this comment 176

here is a classic SI article to read for some of you goof balls who think it is just impossible for a well-established, historical team (i.e. the minnesota vikings) to move out of their home city after many years there.

for those of you who are native minnesotans (or have at least been here a while) you will know why i posted this article in reference to the thoughts of some on here that the mn vikings are somehow boxed in when it comes to minnesota and just won't be able to make the move to LA or another market if one comes calling.

try and remember that the current and likely any future metrodome revenue streams make the minnesota vikings 31st (out of 32 teams) in terms of franchise and team value. this is in the what 14th or 15th largest metropolitan area in the country and we are 31st out of 32 frickin' NFL teams?! that figure alone should be embarassing for pro sports fans in this town. we try and do way too much on the cheap around here. so, i will just say once again that the metrodome (even a "remodeled" one, whatever that means) is not going to cut it folks.

p.s. don't get me wrong.....i am not comparing zygi wilf (who seems like a regular guy for a millionaire) to that flamboyant, weirdo NORM GREEN SUCKS!, but you will get the picture of why i posted this 1993 SI article.

p.p.s. back then in minneapolis (and minnesota) everyone (including local & state politicians) keep saying oh there is no way the north stars can or will leave minnesota and were not going to play ball, so they just need to live with what they have. look where that got us......an NHL team nicknamed the "wild?????" and a messed-up looking mascot named "nordy?!?!?". what the f is a wild and what the hell is nordy?!?! ;-)

all i am saying is let's not make the same mistake of waiting too long with the vikings obvious stadium issue like we did with the north stars arena issues. the nfl is not going to come calling with a new NFL expansion franchise for minneapolis anytime soon....and why would we even want a new one....i like the vikings just fine.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 7:08 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 177

Betaband,

I disagree that we do things on the cheap here as a state (unless you're talking bridge maintenance). We have the galaxy's largest mall, new hockey and baseball stadiums, the Target Center (awesome at the time it was built), etc. etc. I think the real source of frustration is that these projects take too damn long to come to fruition, and that we have to reach panic mode when it comes to the possibility for it to get done. My guess is that this doesn't just happen here; no politician wants to lose his seat (literally and figuratively) by tossing hundreds of millions of tax dollars to a stadium when the appearance of that money going to help education or transportation is out there. (Notice I said "appearance." In many cases the tax dollars wouldn't even be available unless the stadium was built.) Maybe Minnesota is just more so that way, or maybe that's the perception: we're Scandinavian simpletons who can't screw in a light bulb.

Just my opinion.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 7:17 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 178

Show ignored comment by The Truth Hurts

Beautiful :-)

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 9:53 PM by Brandon Highlight this comment 179

I think the truth lies in a combination of Betaband's and The Truth Hurt's idea. Big projects do take forever to come to fruition around here, but part of the reason they take so long is that people want to do things on the cheap and thus stamp out reasonable proposals and give airings to lots of really dumb ideas instead of approaching these projects sensibly. It was this manner of thinking, combined with unbelievably poor moves by the Twins in the beginning, which kept the Twins from getting a stadium for many, many years before anything was done.

I do agree with Betaband 100% that one of the biggest obstacles facing the Vikings in their pursuit of a stadium is the fact that so many people don't actually believe the team will move even though this area lost the North Stars and the NFL has seen the Browns, Cardinals, Colts, Oilers, Rams, and Raiders (twice) all move since 1982. Somehow the fact that the Vikes have been here since 1961, have passionate fans, and have a stadium with great sightlines (even though the rest of it is every bit as bad or worse for the Vikes than it was for the Twins) is enough for too many people to think there is no way the NFL will ever let the team leave Minnesota.

Los Angeles needs to get a lot of things done before the Vikes or any other team like the Bills or Chargers would go there, but that area is further along than Minnesota at this stage in that there is at least a site and some political will behind the project.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 9:55 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 180

Beta much agreed. Thanks for the SI article. To all the "goofballs", as far as losing long-standing, historical teams - it happens. The Washington Senators played in DC for 60 years before moving here to the TC's (the second installment of the Senators didn't last nearly as long. Six or seven years, before moving to Texas and becoming the Rangers).

Think about cities like Winnipeg, Quebec and Hartford who lost long-standing NHL teams like we did. It happens.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 10:11 PM by luke Highlight this comment 181

the theory that politicians would be thrown out office for a stadium vote was proven wrong when all members of the henn. county board who pushed for the ballpark were reelected a scant few months after the bill passed the state legislature. and just weeks after public hearings where people on both sides vented to them. i'd hate to be the governor of this state or any legislator if the vikings moved under their watch. this is the vikes we're talking about....their games register insane ratings. they're the most popular sports entity in the upper midwest by a longshot.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 10:11 PM by tim Highlight this comment 182

However, can something be said for the NFL blocking a potential Vikings move? They have the divisions sorted out just how they like them, and if the Vikings move, they have to re-align everything. Storied rivalries would be lost...can the NFL afford to leave this market? The Timberwolves almost moved to New Orleans in 1994, but didn't, partly because Gov. Carlson lobbied the NBA to block the sale, which they did. Only to find out later, that Top Rank of Louisiana (the boxing promoter who was going to buy the Wolfies) didn't have the cash after all.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 10:17 PM by luke Highlight this comment 183

It's a tough call. Do you fork over hundreds of millions of dollars to an owner for the luxury of retaining a franchise in order to continue to market yourself as a "major league city?" I have to respect a city that says, "thanks but no thanks" but on the other hand, look at cities like Omaha. Nice large city, but it faces a much more difficult hurdle in marketing itself to business and would-be residents.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 10:27 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 184

to the truth hurts last comment: this may sound trivial and strange to some of you, but i only want to live in large metropolitan areas as i get older. right now my plan is to remain in minneapolis, but if for some reason i did have to move as a sports fan i certainly would not want to live in a metro that is not the home to an NFL franchise.

like it or not (or please disagree with my assessment completely if you like) i really don't believe large U.S. metro areas (with the exception of LA, which is an anomaly) can rightfully label themselves as "world-class" or "major-league" if they are not home to an NFL franchise, which is the biggest & most popular sports league in the western hemisphere.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 10:41 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 185

Luke, there is no reason to believe the NFL can't live without the Twin Cities and Minnesota as a whole. The NFL went without Oakland for 13 years, Baltimore 12 years, St. Louis for 7 years, Houston for 5, and Cleveland for 3 years. It has returned to all of those cities, but only Cleveland lost its team with any kind of promise of receiving a new team. The NFL was prepared to go long term, perhaps permanently, without the others.

St. Louis and Baltimore only got new teams after agreeing to build the stadiums that their departed teams had been refused.

The NFL never wanted the Raiders to leave Los Angeles, only rubber stamping the move after the Raiders had effectively already completed their return to Oakland. The NFL really had no other course of action since vetoing the move wouldn't have resulted in the Raiders staying in LA and would only have ignited a furious round of lawsuits.

Houston more or less lucked into the Texans, first by agreeing to build the new stadium it wouldn't build for the departed Oilers and second due to the bidders from Los Angeles failing to get their act together. That expansion of the NFL from 31 to 32 teams was meant to put a team in LA. In fact the owners initially gave the team to Los Angeles by a vote of 29-2, planning to decide on the ownership group later on. When things in LA fell apart due to two competing groups and trouble getting a stadium plan that worked, the NFL called things off and gave the team to Houston.

Los Angeles is now 15 years and counting without a team, but the NFL has never written off the market. If that metro area could ever get a stadium together, it will get a team.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 10:50 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 186

Interesting discussion -

I think the points raised by TTH and Beta regarding the 'legitimacy' of non-NFL cities are understandable and well-taken - I'm sure you all remember HHH's comment - the Twin Cities without the major sports teams would be a "cold Omaha." :)

But I have to say (gotta stick up for my peeps here) Omaha is doing the best it can given its population restrictions, and the relatively high taxes in the state. They just started construction on a brand new downtown baseball stadium which will exist basically to host the College World Series (a HUGE annual draw for the community, which they did not want to lose). Rosenblatt Stadium, the aging current home of the CWS, also happens to be the home the Omaha Royals (KC's AAA team). The new CWS stadium will too big and too expensive for the AAA team, so a neighboring county in the Omaha metro area is building ANOTHER brand new baseball stadium, albeit much smaller, just for the Omaha Royals. Omaha has a new arena/convention center, which has become a popular venue for 'lower-tier' events (early round NCAA b-ball tourney games, NCAA volleyball championships, Olympic swim trials, etc). Nothing like having an NFL franchise, but they're doing the best they can.

Omaha (and NE in general) is simply not big enough to support an NFL franchise, espeically with the Huskers right next door. The only way it would work is if Warren Buffett would agree to purchase the naming rights for the stadium, and agree to buy every luxury box and every club seat, every year. He could certainly afford it.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 11:37 PM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 187

My senior thesis was on public policy and the financing for sports facilities... so this is my wheelhouse. I conducted a pretty exhaustive survey of the four major sports, their facilities, how they were built, the politics of their financing and how long it took...

the average process, from initial proposal to opening day was something like 7 years. (so the Twins were on the long end of that) point being... it really doesn't take that much longer here in MN than anywhere else per se. the difference that i found was that the process in Minnesota, both with the Metrodome, and now with TF, TCFB and the Vikings... (all done after my thesis) was the amount of public inclusion in the process.

Beta, I respect your opinion on this, but in 1993, had Norman Green not tried to slime his way out of the sexual harassment charge brought by the daughter of a local politician, something would have been worked out. Sad fact is, Norm moved the North Stars more to punish Minnesota than to make more money. (in Dallas he subsequently had trouble again - and had to sell shortly after moving to Tom Hicks)

Point being, there is at present, no viable place for the Vikings to go - the only TV market bigger than the Twin Cities that doesn't have a team is LA, and as I've said, there has been no interest beyond the concept stage out there for 15 years.

There are four top 30 markets behind us with no NFL (Portland, Sacramento, Hartford and Orlando) and three of them are adjacent to two franchises and would be blocked by the league - and in the case of Portland, if it is possible for there to be less political support than there is in LA for a stadium, that's the case in Portland.

The problem the Vikings face is that local political figures know this... (I assure you, they know it well) and the Vikings have been stomping their feet about moving now for a decade now... they're turning in to the franchise that cried wolf...

It's hard to take them seriously when they can't point to a pending offer on the table from another city, and when, as difficult as their situation may be... there are other franchises in worse shape (Jacksonville, Buffalo, St. Louis and New Orleans)...

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 11:38 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 188

President Obama to Target Center on Saturday...I wonder if he would stop by TCF Bank Stadium for that opening? It's only ironic he's flying in on Air Force One and the Gophers are opening against Air Force Academy. That would make the Inaugural Game even more memorable if the President could attend while he's in town.

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 11:47 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 189

Very good points CJ. I think the NFL will ultimately step up to keep the Vikings in Minnesota one way or another.

No one has mentioned how the upcoming labor negotiations may affect a stadium push as well.

Next year is already scheduled to be an un-capped year with a possible lockout looming in 2011.

Things could get ugly if there is an NFL lockout in 2011 (thus 2010 COULD be the Vikings final season in Minnesota, though highly unlikely in my opinion).

Posted on September 9, 2009 at 11:56 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 190

Betaband,( & others)
Great points on the moving teams and reasons. But one team that moved that really had issues was the Lakers. The MPLS Lakers. (there are no lakes in L.A.are there?).
Sid was saying even the players weren't sure where they would be playing on a game to game basis. They had the Mpls Aud, the Armory,and other arena's.
So we lost a team that at that time had the most championships in the NBA (Boston had just started their run)at that time. What a shame!

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 09:22 AM by hans Highlight this comment 191

How much money would the state lose if the Vikings left just in taxes paid by the players on them. The salary cap for this year is $127 million dollars and if they use all of that, and using say 15-20 percent in taxes each player pays in taxes the state would lose out on 20-25 million a year.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 10:46 AM by firedog Highlight this comment 192

Enough with the Vikings!

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 10:58 AM by Jeff Highlight this comment 193

Regarding the Minneapolis Lakers, Elgin Baylor once missed part of a game because he went to the wrong arena and it took him some time to figure out where the game was actually taking place and then get over there.

Regarding the NFL doing something to keep the Vikes here, the league has been willing to kick in money towards the new stadium, something it has done elsewhere. I also believe that the NFL would want the Vikes to exhaust every possible stadium scenario here before endorsing a move. However, I don't think the NFL would stand for the Vikings playing indefinitely at the Metrodome. The NFL shares revenues, so having a stadium that is 31 or 32 in nearly every revenue category and falling further and further behind is not a situation that can go on indefinitely. It's also worth noting that the Raiders moved twice without approval and the Colts move happened so quickly that the NFL just rubber stamped a relocation that had already occurred, so just based on history, the NFL couldn't really do anything to stop the Vikes from moving if it came down to it.

Regarding Target Field, I haven't been by since Sunday evening. Has the "TARGET FIELD" lettering and logo on the rear of the scoreboard been completed yet? It only said "TAR F E" the other day.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 12:15 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 194

New MBA video. Click my name for the link.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 12:23 PM by Jeff Highlight this comment 195

I believe the players earn their income in the states they play in, so half the time they earn their income and pay other taxes to other states.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 12:27 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 196

Nice video. I guess the big news is that the wind veil will be installed "later this fall". A tad vague, but still nice to know. This will of course block off one of the best places to see the new plaza: the 5th floor of the B Garage. Also nice to hear that a bunch of trees will be planted along the new 3rd Avenue sidewalk. That will be nice.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 12:48 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 197

Thanks for the link Jeff...wind veil to be installed later this fall!

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 12:55 PM by kevin in mn Highlight this comment 198

Thanks for the info Jeff, nice to read some Target Field related stuff on here!

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 1:25 PM by Mazaaratirick Highlight this comment 199

Hey Badjuggler. DSP updated his ballpark blog a few days ago and stated that the wind veil should be installed by December of this year. Below is the complete run down of his update for Target Plaza.
Click my name for the entire blog entry

The Golden Glove - The large bronze glove located near Gate 34 has been sculpted, poured and is nearing completion. Jerry Bell and I had the opportunity to check out the Golden Glove last week at a foundry in Howard Lake, MN. The 1,500-pound sculpture is a perfect rendition of an old-school baseball glove. In addition, the team is planning to place a plaque honoring every Gold Glove winner in Twins history at the base of the sculpture. The Golden Glove will be installed on Target Plaza sometime in October.

Legendary Player Sculptures - Work is well underway on sculptures of National Baseball Hall of Famers Harmon Killebrew, Rod Carew and Kirby Puckett. Plans still call for installation of the three sculptures on or around Opening Day of 2010.

Tradition Wall - The fan recognition wall sold out last week is now in full production. Fans should expect the eight (8) glass panels featuring the names of 2,400 fans -- along with pennants devoted to each and every Twins team since 1961 -- to be in place sometime in November.

Wind Veil - The work of nationally renowned artist Ned Kahn, the wind veil is now in production. The piece will be titled "The Wave" and should be installed in December of this year.

Minnesota Ballpark History - Thanks to funding provided by the Minnesota Ballpark Authority, the team is currently working to design a special glass wall tribute to the history of Minnesota's ballparks. Located within the 7th street planter, the ballpark history marker will be in place sometime in early 2010.

Twins Hall of Fame - The team continues to work with project designers on a number of options on Target Plaza aimed at commemorating the Twins Hall of Fame.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 1:31 PM by Jeff Highlight this comment 200

Omaha also has a Division I baseball team (Creighton, I think) that may be using that new ballpark. They are doing a good job with what they have, though I don't know that that was the dispute.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 2:55 PM by robin Highlight this comment 201

Please Rick, we need an update from you. This blog has been taken over by talk of football and football stadiums. I don't give a rats ass about it. I hate the Vikings.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 3:06 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 202

^ As do I. As a New England Patriots fan I could care less what happens with the Vikings. The Patriots new(ish) stadium by the way was paid for without any public money.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 3:26 PM by PJ Highlight this comment 203

Although the stadium was largely funded by the Patriots, the state of Massachusetts kicked in about $72,000,000 in infrastructure costs (and the road, not roads, leading into that stadium remains terribly congested on gamedays). The NFL also kicked in about $150,000,000 towards the construction, an amount similar to what the Vikes could expect.

Anyway, I apologize for blabbing on about the Vikes stadium. I know it's not the cup of tea for many people and can just sense people pressing the "ignore this poster" icon, so this will be the end of it for me.

I'm just a huge sports fan who loves the Twins and the Vikes, and now that one is here to stay, desperately wants the other to stay put too. For what it's worth, I was every bit as strident and forceful when pressing local politicians and other people who weren't on board in general to support a stadium for the Twins. Anyway, I retire from the Vikes discussion and will gladly talk the Twins and Target Field with whoever is up for it.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 4:06 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 204

Twins... Twins...Twins

New Ballpark... New Ballpark... New Ballpark!!

It's Looking AWESOME!!

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 4:16 PM by hans Highlight this comment 205

I agree. Enough football talk.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 4:17 PM by jfh Highlight this comment 206

I'm sorry if I've missed if this was discussed. But what is up with seat installation in the lower seating bowl over at TF? They still haven't continued finishing the dugout box seats, and they're taking out sections again - while the terrace level is seemingly complete, and the upper level is moving along quite nicely.

Again, sorry if I missed the discussion, but I'd have no idea where to look.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 4:31 PM by luke Highlight this comment 207

luke,

See post #39 for more info/theories about the removal of the seats down the first base line. As far as the Dugout box along 3rd base, I dunno. It's been at a stand still for awhile.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 5:47 PM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 208

Thanks Expectorate.

As a public service - if any of you are interested, you can now sign up to enter a drawing for tickets for the inaugural ride of the Northstar train. Click my name to access the entry form.

According to the Northstar website "More than 350 tickets will be awarded at each station outside of downtown Minneapolis to those who register. A limited number of additional tickets will be available on a first-come, first-served basis on Nov. 14 at the suburban stations. Space on the grand opening trains is limited and tickets are required to ride."

There is a catch, "No grand opening train rides will be available in downtown Minneapolis. However, grand opening participants who visit the Target Field Station will have an opportunity to tour a Northstar train. Minneapolis visitors also will have an opportunity to get a free ride coupon good for travel on Northstar at a future date to be specified. Trains will travel non-stop from each station directly to downtown Minneapolis, where riders will have an opportunity to see the Target Field Station and the connection to the Hiawatha Light Rail Transit Line. Northstar trains will return directly to their originating stations a short time later."

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 6:06 PM by luke Highlight this comment 209

I wonder when they are going to install the shaking hands logo in center field, has anybody heard? That will be a nice touch!

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 6:23 PM by firedog Highlight this comment 210

Jorge-
I was able to peek down at the scoreboard after getting off the light rail on my way to the Mars Volta concert. Currently the scoreboard has the Target Logo and "TARGET F E" in place.

Posted on September 10, 2009 at 10:58 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 211

Hey I noticed they installed the lights for the Budweiser sign yeaaaaaaa ha.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 12:00 AM by Leroy Highlight this comment 212

Instead of paying a bundle on eBay "the day after," I decided I'd go to gophersports.com and order my copy of the Inaugural Game Program for TCFBS.
They are on sale for $7.00 on the website, with $3.00 ground shipping.

I'll still go back to eBay though to find a ticket stub or two.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 07:07 AM by luke Highlight this comment 213

Since the Twins topic has merged into all sports and stadiums, here is an article from WCCO about the stadium chatter. IIRC all of the questions asked in the article were asked on this site and it appears these answers have come from the horse's mouth. the big one that was asked recently was about tax money the Vikings would lose and from what I remember, whoever did the rough figures didn't do too bad. Click my name for story.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 08:17 AM by Jared Highlight this comment 214

Correction: The question (by firedog) here was how much money would the state lose if the Vikings left. firedog referenced players salaries and such as well. The article covers salaries, tickets, merch and admission.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 08:23 AM by Jared Highlight this comment 215

As of 9am this morning, the back of the scoreboard now reads "Target Field", complete with the Target symbol.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 09:16 AM by Chad Highlight this comment 216

I am a little perplexed by all of the expressed concern over which order seats are installed. Personally, as long as they get them all in before Opening Day I could give a hoot which order they choose to do them or when they get done. But call me crazy...

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 09:36 AM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 217

It would be nice if they used the Target logo on the back of the scoreboard as a giant clock.

Rather than just looking like some giant "TARGET FIELD" billboard facing the warehouse district, it could serve some useful purpose. I know the chances of this happening are virtually zero but it would have been a nice touch.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 10:15 AM by Wanda Phillips Highlight this comment 218

Badjuggler, this is the reason why I think it is good to talk about stadiums for the Vikings (or TCFBS as Rick focused on in this post), because as Rick said in this story, a major milestone for Target Field is in the rearview mirror. Our attention can turn to other stadium discussions. I think this discussion about the Viking stadium issue is far more intriguing than the rate and progress of seat installation, in my opinion.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 10:20 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 219

Aren't the Twins supposed to take batting practice at TF today???

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 10:30 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 220

Its hasn't been mentioned what specific day the Twins will take batting practice at Target Filed. DSP has stated that it will be most likely during this current home stand. Has any other organization done this with a new ballpark. I think its a great idea to give the players a feel for the sight lines from home plate, and have them say decide if any minor changes need to be made.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 10:58 AM by Jeff Highlight this comment 221

The Mets did it last year, I know that.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 11:15 AM by Steeks Highlight this comment 222

Cmon Badjuggler,

You are perplexed by discussions about seat installation, but made sure we were kept up to date on the "bunch of trees" being installed on 3rd Avenue? "Hello kettle? Yeah, this is the pot. You're black."

I'm sorry, but I grow a little weary of people editorializing about what should and should not be discussed here. I don't think anyone is staying up nights worried that the seats won't be installed on time, we're simply commenting about an issue related to construction of the ballpark. Isn't that what we've all been doing this whole time?

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 12:23 PM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 223

I think they should at least do some statues or something for some other greats, even ones like Dave Winfield, and Paul Molitor who didn't play with the Twins very long, but are great players from the area. Also, what about Tony Oliva? Shouldn't he have a statue? They should also have a statue or memorial area for Jackie Robinson to commemorate his great achievment.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 12:40 PM by MB Highlight this comment 224

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but in regards to the statues, I remember the Twins stating that there is a strong likely hood of other players having statues in the future. The organization did not have enough funds allocated to that project at this time to make more statues.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 12:53 PM by Jeff Highlight this comment 225

webcam 2 more open with the scaffolding taken down

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 1:17 PM by The Sooj Highlight this comment 226

Expectorate - The trees item was something new I personally had not heard about. My apologies if you had mentioned it already. I'm pretty sure we are all aware that the seats are not all in yet. But go ahead and prattle on about it over and over. I can easily skip it.

On the statues, I hope they are keeping it to Hall Of Fame members only. That seems a reasonable and easy-to-follow standard. No Hrbek. No Ron Davis. Hopefully Oliva and Blyleven soon. Also, I think they should have played here at least five years, which would eliminate "cup of coffee Twins" like Molitor and Winfield.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 1:57 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 227

I completely agree with the statues take. Keep them for the exceptional (HOF) players, not necessarily the good players or fan favorites.

That being said, is there any special recognition at the stadium for TK? Granted, he is not a HOF coach, but he did manage (superbly) our only championships in this state, sans the Lakers.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 2:25 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 228

Jared--
I read the WCCO piece--it looks like about $35 million in revenue would leave the state if the Vikes left. With the public portion of a new stadium in the 750 million range, it is pretty tough to justify a stadium using the argument of less tax/state revenue. Even if you assumed no interest on the debt, it would still take a long time to hit the break even point.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 2:32 PM by turfguy (aka sv) Highlight this comment 229

Has there ever been a dugout named after someone? How about the "Tom Kelly Dugout." (I know, I'm reaching) Great point though, DreDogg - TK definitely deserves the props.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 2:50 PM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 230

Getting VERY close to installing my two seats.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 3:24 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 231

anybody know if we're due to have more home series with East Div teams, specifically boston and new york? I thought there was some kind of rotation on that. I guess we'll find out next week.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 4:02 PM by robin Highlight this comment 232

I was wondering if anyone out there can answer a question-why do the Gophers and other Big Ten Teams always play at 11:00 or if the're on channel 5 they play at about 2:30. Why in the world can't we (the gophers) play at 12:00, 1:00, or 2:00. 11:00 just seems too early to me. When I went to a game at Iowa State two years ago the game started at noon. I prefer to watch any sport in the daytime but does the reason the games start at eleven have something to do with the tv networks, money, or what.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 4:27 PM by Tom D. Highlight this comment 233

Tom - uh, the Gophers are playing tomorrow night at 6pm.
The Gophers have played at least one 11 AM game the last few years to cowtow to the Twins, so they could get the Dome ready for a 7:10 Twins start.
Now that the Gophs are no longer in the Dome, they can play whenever the heck they want.
Funny part is, the Twins actually adjusted their schedule to have an afternoon game tomorrow, so we can all watch the Gophs TCFBS debut on BTN.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 5:07 PM by luke Highlight this comment 234

Tom D the answer is because it is college football. That's when it is supposed to be played. It is sacred. Much like 7pm Friday kickoffs for High School and noon on Sundays for the big boys.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 5:14 PM by Eric Highlight this comment 235

actually luke, i don't think your observation is correct. pretty much all BIG TEN games are expected to begin at 12PM ET/11AM CT depending on where the game is being played obviously (i.e. minneapolis vs. ann arbor). basically, unless you are a BIG TEN game that has been slotted into one of the mid/late afternoon national or evening national games on either ESPN/ABC (both owned by disney) your game will always be played at 12PM ET/11AM CT.

before television became such a big thing in college football and when far fewer games/sporting events were televised most of the BIG TEN games started an hour later than they do now (i.e. they usually began at 1PM ET/12PM CT) rather than 12PM ET/11AM CT.

so tom d. i guess you can kind of ironically blame it on TV for big ten games starting on TV when they do! ;-)

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 5:24 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 236

Beta - I guess I just don't remember too many 11AM Gopher starts. Alot of the games I watched were the 'prime time' games. And, I don't think I paid too much attention cause all the pocket schedules usually say "Time TBA".

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 5:29 PM by luke Highlight this comment 237

turfguy,

How did you come up with $35 million? I only got $18 million. The itemization of State Income Tax, Sales Tax, and Ticket Tax is to support the $18, not in addition to it.

So, assuming 3% interest, the Vikings would have to generate about $50.5 million per year for 20 years to cover $750 million in bonds.

Make it 30 years, and that drops to $38.3 million per year.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 6:08 PM by David_Mpls Highlight this comment 238

They should take the money they make on the players taxes and put that towards the new stadium. Even at $18 million a year times say 30 years that is $540 million plus interest then the NFL kicks in $150 million you are at almost $700 million. If Zygi wants a new stadium he comes up with the rest.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 6:34 PM by firedog Highlight this comment 239

I suppose you have to look at the value of a stadium not so much as to how much the team playing there generates in tax revenue, but in how much residual commerce it can generate. A lot of stadiums are built in areas of towns that look prime for development but need an anchor to draw people into the area. Wrigleyville and the neighborhood around Coors Field (I'm told - haven't been there. Correct me if I'm mistaken.) come to mind. I guess if you consider the taxes paid by those businesses in sales and increased property value, and add the taxes paid by those employed in those businesses, wouldn't you have to add that to the total tax revenue paid by the stadium's tenant?
New stadiums also can increase the quality of life in a city/state, and positive liveability studies can attract relocating busineses. More corporate and individual tax revenues there.
Perhaps $35 million just scratches the surface.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 6:43 PM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 240

luke - correct. the gophers don't have to start at 12PM ET/11AM CT nor does any other big ten team. that being said all big ten teams WILL start at 12PM ET/11AM CT (the conference expects this of all their teams) unless they are one of the very few teams around the country who are selected by either the Big Ten Network or ABC/ESPN to play in one of the nationally televised time slots that are generally reserved for the late afternoons and evenings.

tom d. - so far the gophers already have a few "later in the day" nationally televised games already on the docket and could get more as the season goes on depending records going into the games and the attractiveness of the match-ups as determined by the tv networks/conference:

1.) 9/5: U of M vs. syracuse was on ESPN2 (national game)
2.) 9/12: U of M vs. air force at 6PM CT on BTN (national game)
3.) 9/19: U of M vs. cal at 11AM CT on ESPN2 (national game)
4.) 10/3: U of M vs. becky badger (UW) at TBA. depending on each team's record coming into the game i would not be surprised to see the oldest rivalry game in college football get a national slot on either BTN or ESPN/ABC
5.) 10/17: U of M vs. penn state at 2:30PM CT on ABC (national game)
6.) 10/31: U of M vs. michigan state at 7:00PM CT on BTN (national game)
7.) 11/21: U of M vs. iowa hogeyes at TBA. depending on each team's record coming into the game i would not be surprised to see this rivalry game get a national slot on BTN.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 7:01 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 241

Did I just realize, I won't be able to watch the game tomorrow? Stupid Comcast making BTN give in to not having to be on a first tier plan. Ever since then I can't get it on DirecTV.

Posted on September 11, 2009 at 11:32 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 242

Big Ten Network is on channel 610 on DirecTV

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 07:06 AM by Vikeologist Highlight this comment 243

Yeah I got it confused with something else. Seems we change providers every other year or so, only watch it during football season, and eve then last year I worked every saturday so never had much of a chance.

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 11:06 AM by Camden Highlight this comment 244

the scaffolding is 100% down!

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 2:03 PM by Deenels Highlight this comment 245

Most of the construction trailers are also gone from the South Parking Lot.

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 2:31 PM by David_Mpls Highlight this comment 246

I think that the only team that could benifit a new stadium as much as the Twins is the Gophers, just seening the vibe out there right now is nuts.... i have been to the brick house when i was .. well my uncle is 49 now and he was in the marching band then so i would say probably one of the last 2 years of the joint... i rememeber the coolness of it all and i could not have been 6 years old... it has returned... they have been lined up @ TCF since 4pm to get in... what a home feild advantage! go gophers

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 5:45 PM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 247

They have started installing the public art panels along 5th avenue.

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 7:58 PM by John_CR Highlight this comment 248

5th St. I mean.

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 7:59 PM by John_CR Highlight this comment 249

The lights on the Budweiser sign are on and bright. I know they don't have lights on them now but it would be hard to imagine there wouldn't be some type of lighting on the Target Field signs above the Met club and on the back of the scoreboard. Frankly I am surprised the TF sign above the Met club doesn't have them already.

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 8:55 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 250

What a football game that was tonight. The TV guys just raved about TCFBS. 2-0 and ready for the Bears next week.

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 9:17 PM by luke Highlight this comment 251

Michael Floyd lines up left, Decker wide right, Weber in the shot-gun. I'm dreamin! Oh well! Great win by the Gophs tonight...

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 10:02 PM by Locker Highlight this comment 252

any suggestions on how I can get my mitts on some paraphanalia from the game? ticket stubs, handouts, confetti...etc? would it be as simple as checking eBay tomorrow?
I ordered the game program through Gophersports.com, so I don't need one of those.

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 10:04 PM by luke Highlight this comment 253

From Sid's Sunday column:

While all of the seats won't be installed until November at the new Twins stadium, Kevin Smith, the club's director of public affairs, looks for the capacity of Target Field to be slightly under 40,000.

Posted on September 12, 2009 at 11:35 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 254

I really dont like this new offense they have though...weber is way more comfortable in the spread

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 10:31 AM by Deenels Highlight this comment 255

With game one out of the way, here are a few thoughts on TCF Bank Stadium:

Good Stuff

- The leg room, at least in my section in the upper deck corner between the student section and the start of the luxury boxes, is outstanding. As long as a person doesn't lean too far foward, it's possible to remain comfortably seated while another fan walks through the aisle.

- The sightlines are great. Even on upper tier, the seats are close to the action.

- The main scoreboard/videoboard is huge and the views are clear even far across the stadium.

- The PA system is crystal clear, a welcome change from the Dome. In the first half it was way too loud, obnoxiously so, but they turned it down to a reasonable volume in the second half and it was smooth sailing from there.

- The restrooms are plentiful and of decent size, resulting in no lines or crush.

- I parked in the ramp next to the Radisson on Washington and lived in deep fear of the traffic. However getting in and out was a breeze. We'll see what happens with an 11:00 am kickoff when the crowd doesn't arrive in such a staggered manner.

The Bad

- Crowd control/circlation/admission at the entry gates was beyond horrible. The lines were poorly formed, resulting in terrible and literally dangerous bottlenecks. The friskings were done too slowly. Fans trying to get beyond the lines to other gates had to cut through the crush, making matters worse. Fans arrived in a staggered manner last night. If things don't get ironed out for the 11:00 am kickoffs, when everyone will pretty much arrive at once, it's going to be a disaster.

- The concession stands lacked modern cash registers/POS systems. This, without any doubt at all, is the single biggest mistake/flaw in the stadium. Customers would give an order that a concession stand employee then had to price check on a laminated price chart and then total with a calculator, causing unnecessary delays in the process. The larger and more complex the order, the more confused the concession stand employee would become when trying to calculate the price of the order. Modern cash registers/POS systems need to be brought in right away, the type of system like at the Metrodome or Xcel Energy system in which a concession stand employee can be told that a customer wants a hot dog and then can press the "hot dog" key on the register which automatically tallies and prices the item, thus eliminating the delay inducing confusion of tonight.

Whoever decided to go with the calculator system in a brand new $300 million stadium made a colossal mistake.

- In general, the concession stands were poorly manned by undertrained, overwhelmed employees who were simply not up to the tasks they faced. It was your worst Metrodome experience multiplied by 10. The lines were inexcusably long and too many specialty stands ran out of food (burgers, pizza, Subway, etc...). These problems can be remedied by training the employees better and also by having more food on stock and by preparing it in a more timely manner. A further way to help things out would be to add additional food carts on the main and upper concourses and many, many more roving vendors with a far larger array of choices.

Overall, the game experience was fun and the flaws can all be corrected in an easy manner. A lot of the trouble was due to typical first night snafus. It's a great place to watch a game.

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 10:47 AM by Jorge Highlight this comment 256

Jorge - I heard about some of the concession stand stuff on KFAN this morning. I suppose, it's stuff like that that makes the two exhibition games at TF all the more important.

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 1:12 PM by luke Highlight this comment 257

I'm surprised they had those POS issues. Even old antiquated systems at least allow you to put "Hot Dog" on a button of the machine. I work at a facility where we just upgraded our POS system from 10-year-old registers to a touch-screen system that ties into your inventory, etc. Even our old, crappy registers allowed you program the menu items.

I wonder if they had some sort of unexpected failure with the register system planned. It boggles the mind that a brand spanking new stadium would have such an antiquated system.

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 2:07 PM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 258

Is it possible that their "new" system simply has not arrived yet? Would that not make more sense than someone being a complete moron?

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 2:53 PM by twinznut Highlight this comment 259

I asked a concession stand worker if modern POS systems were going to be installed later in the season and she said "no". However she may not necessarily be in the loop.

The calculator/laminated pricing sheet format is currently in use at Williams Arena and, I assume, at Mariucci Arena. However crowds of 14,000 and 10,000 are not the same as crowds of more than 50,000. So it seems plausible that the U of M figured this system could work at TCF Bank Stadium as well. However, what works at the smaller venues is not necessarily appropriate for the larger one, especially since the new stadium offers more food choices and, as a result, makes the job of adding up the prices more difficult for the employees behind the counters.

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 4:15 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 260

So, there may well be yet another moron on the loose?

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 4:24 PM by twinznut Highlight this comment 261

I was at TCGBS too and agree wholeheartedly with Jorge.

Do we really need to be patted down to get into the game? I heard some people missed the flyover.

The food service was atrocious. Besides the issues Jorge mentioned, they plain just ran out of food. Which is just weird, everyone knew 51,000 people would be in that stadium.

There was no one going up and down the aisles selling food, which was nice but when the lines are 25 deep, some other means to get food would have been nice. Also given the fact that the concourse serves both the upper and lower bowl, there's just plain a lot of people looking to get stuff. TCF needs more food kiosks and individuals to take pressure off the main food booths.

Otherwise a beautiful stadium and a great time!!!

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 4:57 PM by freealonzo Highlight this comment 262

Speaking of the flyover, the jets flew over as the teams took the field instead of during the Star Spangled Banner. Apparently the pregame countdown clock was accidentally stopped for a couple of minutes and by the time they realized that the timing of the pregame ceremonies was completely off, it was too late to fix things and the jets came too soon (or rather the national anthem came too late).

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 5:11 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 263

well, it sounds like jorge reads the www.gopherhole.com message boards! ;-)

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 5:37 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 264

New Post! New Post! New Post! J/K Rick awesome site!

But really New Post!

Posted on September 13, 2009 at 9:26 PM by Josh Highlight this comment 265

Hey...nothing too special, but I took a few pictures of TCFBS and TF yesterday while i was down in Minneapolis

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 09:34 AM by Erik Highlight this comment 266

I get people complaining about food, but what did you expect?

Show me a report of a stadium opening, and you'll find plenty of operational issues. You've got to train in tons of new employees on everything, and this is their first chance to make it work. For example, yes - they knew they'd have a sellout. But they don't know how many people would buy food. Every other stadium in the Big Ten has lots of data from years of sales to guide their decisions.

Don't worry, they'll work out the kinks. They'll let people in faster, they'll understand what kind of lead time they need for halftime food rushes, etc.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 09:42 AM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 267

i don't know Alex, if this is true about having to manually enter prices instead of hitting "LARGE BEER" button, that is idiotic.

Anyone know what happened to the Minnescraper page? Rick? I haven't been able to access it for quite a while.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 10:57 AM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 268

I'm sure they'll get cash registers eventually, but that's not the point.

Take Camp Randall, for example. No cash registers there, but things run smoothly because the people working the stands know what to expect and have operated those stands before. Likewise, I've been to stadiums with cash registers and inexperienced operators where lines moved like molasses (Nats Park was a disaster for the first couple of games until they learned).

It's like any new job - people will get the hang of it. Game 2 will be better than game 1, and game 3 will be better than game 2.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 11:28 AM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 269

Beta, Beta, Beta.

Gophers-Badgers is an infant compared to the *real* oldest rivalry of Lehigh-Lafayette or even Princeton-Yale or The Game.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 11:40 AM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 270

I have a question, I am coming down from the north counrty tommorrow for the Twins game and wanted to walk around and get some pictures of the new stadium any ideas suggestions on where to park down there?

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 11:47 AM by firedog Highlight this comment 271

Firedog,

There is a anytime fitness on the corner by the LRT platform there is always a spot or two to park there.. you can walk all around the park...

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 12:15 PM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 272

Alex B.,

I've been to one game at year at Camp Randall for the last four years (my step-daughter went to school there). I recall the concessions having registers that have the menu items on the button. No recollection of manually adding up items on a calculator.

I can see new workers needing a learning curve, but it's totally inexcusable to put those workers in a positon where they have to look at a laminated menu card and then add up the total. Even the cheapest, piece of crap registers available allow you bypass that step. And by the way, this would be on Aramark, who runs the concessions, not necessarily the U of M.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 12:21 PM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 273

Does anyone know exactly how many seats each row will have per section? (Especially wondering about sections 108 and 109)

I don't recall seeing reference to this anywhere. I like Cleveland having only 10 seats/row, but some of these look much bigger on the web cam. The virtual view doesn't seem to be clear enough to count them from any angle I can find anyway.

Thanks

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 12:34 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 274

mplsgreg,

The minnescraper admin seems to hjave gone AWOL. I've tried contacting him/her for the past couple of weeks. All I get is silence.

It's a shame because right now it's an echo chamber of the few people who can still log in.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 12:43 PM by David (aka David) Highlight this comment 275

Well, the last few games I've been to at Camp Randall were in the student section, so I don't think they've sent the highest technology over there yet.

Even so, at the relatively new and shiny Kohl Center, they'd always have food ready to go at hockey intermissions, just grabbing cash in exchange for food and beverages (simple math isn't that hard).

It'll be fine once people get the hang of it.

Even if they had cash registers, if you have inexperienced people working, it's still going to be slow. Have you ever been to a McDonalds or any other fast food and gotten stuck with a trainee cashier?

The good thing is that the learning curve for food service is pretty fast.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 12:44 PM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 276

There are seating sections with way over 10 seats per row. It looks like some (section 103) may have about 25 in a row. It gets a little difficult counting when you zoom in from webcam 2.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 12:50 PM by roadwarrior Highlight this comment 277

Yeah, did the seat selection tool have individual seats? I didn't have access to it. I thought that would probably be the best resource.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 12:57 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 278

Thanks Maz!!!

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 1:01 PM by firedog Highlight this comment 279

from the seat selection tool it lists 24 seats in section 103.

20 hours until i get to choose...

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 1:02 PM by annoyingcustomer Highlight this comment 280

How about 107 and 108? Interested because they look widest.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 1:05 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 281

because those sections are sold out (or just not available to me) i am unable to see the official number. it won't even let me zoon in to manually count.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 1:22 PM by annoyingcustomer Highlight this comment 282

I know that Section 121 has 24 seats per row. You can use that for a reference.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 1:36 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 283

Jorge,

How was the parking situation at the game Saturday? I'm going to the Cal game this weekend. Everything you read says don't even try to drive to the East Bank if you aren't a season ticket holder. But you wrote that you parking in the garage by the Radisson on Wash. Ave. How was that?

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 2:13 PM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 284

I didn't make the game, but my mom did. She said they parked over by the fairgrounds and took the shuttle, was really smooth.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 2:58 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 285

I'm guessing Jorge is a season ticket holder. I might possibly park on the west bank and take a shuttle or seriously thinking about biking to the game, I live close enought that it would be a nice ride, 20 minutes or so.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 3:04 PM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 286

I parked at the Washington Avenue Ramp next door to the Radisson, which is a season ticket holder/permit ramp only, and it went really smoothly. I entered campus from Minneapolis via the Franklin Avenue bridge and took the River Road to Harvard and then crossed Washington with ease and drove in. There was so little traffic that it was actually stunning even though it was just a little more than an hour before kickoff. Leaving was also a breeze. There was not a lot of traffic and Washington flowed well. We just took a right onto Washington afterwards and drove into downtown in a matter of moments.

I'd tell anyone going to a game to avoid driving on University Avenue if possible. After parking, we walked past Cooke Hall and the Field House onto University across from Williams Arena and it was jammed, a night and day difference from Washington over by the Radisson. University was also getting pretty jammed after the game due to the crowds coming out of the stadium.

My guess is that due to the 6:00 pm kickoff, a lot of people arrived very early to avoid traffic, hit the bars, and to catch some of the atmosphere. It might be quite different this weekend when the game with Cal is at 11:00 am and the crowd will arrive in a much more concentrated timespan. I will miss the game on Saturday, due to a family event in the Bay Area that is ironically taking place minutes from Cal's campus, but plan to be on the road very early for future 11:00 am kickoffs.

For parking off campus, even though a lot has been made of people parking by the State Fair Grounds, I think parking in downtown Minneapolis and then taking a short bus ride to campus would be a better bet. It's closer and the buses are probably less crowded.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 3:20 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 287

I wonder if they decided not to have batting practice this week at TF...maybe I am just impatient.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 3:39 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 288

Jorge, Before TCFB stadium was bulit. I used to park in those lots where the stadium not sits, and take a shuttle to the State Fair. The bus takes about 5 minutes. It runs on a bus only road. Way more efficient than taking a bus in from downtown.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 3:51 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 289

"now" not "not"

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 3:52 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 290

I have watching the Twins webcam and noticed a couple section of seats on the lower seating bowl have been removed. I believe it was 1-2 behind home plate area and one near the right field pole. Did they use the wrong seat bolts again?

They also gave several sections behind 3B that have been sitting half finished for a while now. Did they make a mistake? or are they waiting for something?

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 4:01 PM by Alex D. Highlight this comment 291

The bases are in!!!!

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 4:06 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 292

Alex - the seat installation thing is beyond my comprehension (we've all speculated about it around here). I don't think they've re-started installation of seats in the dugout box section for a month. It baffles my mind.

DreDogg - indeed they are, and they look nice.

Back to TCFBS for a minute - does anyone think the high school league will re-locate the Prep Bowl there? Quite honestly, and this is an undertatement I know, but it was nice watching a Gopher game on artificial turf without the baseball markings on it.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 4:57 PM by luke Highlight this comment 293

Section 107 is somewhat pie shaped. It has 16 seats in Row 4, the first full row, and 19 seats in the top row. Section 108 appears to have 24 seats in every row. Section 109 also has 24 seats in every row.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 5:22 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 294

luke - almost certainly not - prep bowl brings in huge crowds from the far flung corners of the state and the MSHSL isn't going to want to deal with the complaints the first time it's cold or rainy or snowy the days after thanksgiving. that - and prepbowl is now a two day event - including a late-season college football saturday the gophers aren't going to want to give up

the only possibility is that the timmy brew lobbies for it to boost recruiting - although the FBS-level DI prospects in Minnesota are pretty few and far between - so I don't see it happening.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 5:23 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 295

Thanks for the insight CJ. Just wasn't sure if they were going to give it a shot or not.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 6:15 PM by luke Highlight this comment 296

An update on the Northstar free ride event on 11/14:

"No rides will be provided in downtown Minneapolis that day. However, people may tour a Northstar train at the Target Field Station and receive a free Metro Transit ride coupon good for travel on Northstar at a later specified date."

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 6:16 PM by David_Mpls Highlight this comment 297

luke - only put so much confidence in what CJ had to say regarding high school football games and the new gopher football stadium. i actually see (and have heard this from U of M officials) some state football playoff games (at the very least) happening at the new brickhouse. to start i think they will have some metro area state playoffs and see how it goes before expanding.

p.s. CJ there are more and more FBS level D1 players coming out of minnesota every year, many who are stars in both the college and NFL game. please think before you speak next time.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 6:34 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 298

Would it be cheaper for the MSHSL to move to TCFBS, though? I imagine that the Dome would cost more as far as energy costs are concerned...and that they are paying for 50,000+ seats at TCFBS, compared to 64,000+ at the dome.

I have no idea what it costs yearly to rent the dome.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 6:37 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 299

Interesting thing I read over on the Marlins site: their new stadium will include places for fans to plug in and charge their mobile devices.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 7:43 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 300

There is a MPLS Cop car on the Plaza at 7:45 with its lights on...who jumped the fence?

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 7:54 PM by Andrew Highlight this comment 301

Beta - I'm comparing the numbers in MN to the rest of the country and states of comparable size. CURRENTLY - in a given year, MN produces fewer than average, it's not a recruiting hotbed... which makes sense, many of our best all around athletes end up in hockey or baseball (in the case of a certain Cretin quarterback)

It's not a vicious slight to say that - I would agree with a sentiment that said a lack of a truly prestigious and relevant FBS program has added to that. (and before you get pissed - yes, I think TCF will change that)

As for TCF - I could see the 5A playoff games being there (as they are often mid-week, and would be outside anyway) - seeing teams like Blaine, Eden Prairie and Cretin play there would certainly be intriguing - but for the reasons above - I find it hard to believe MSHSL is going to move Prep Bowl any time soon.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 7:56 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 302

Dre - In every prep bowl i've ever been to (as a fan and player) the upper deck of the dome is not open. the biggest crowd i remember was 1996 or 97 Blaine/Eden Prairie when the lower bowl was almost totally full

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 7:59 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 303

CJ, that is what I am kinda wondering. Are they still charged the full amount, or do they get a discount to close off the upper deck?

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 8:37 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 304

I don't think this has been mentioned - so hopefully this is a public service. Channel 11 is doing an Extra piece on TCFBS tonight on the 10pm news.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 9:48 PM by luke Highlight this comment 305

Way to go Cuddy and Kubel! Is it to little to late? Only time will tell! Oh yeah, and Tigers won too, bummer!

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 10:09 PM by Josh Highlight this comment 306

That cop has been there with his lights on since 7:00 tonight. His lights are still on at 10:30.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 10:35 PM by David_Mpls Highlight this comment 307

Morneau is out for the season with a stress fracture in his back. At least we know why he has struggled in the past month. He needs three months, so should be fully healthy by the end of the year.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 10:49 PM by Twins Territory Highlight this comment 308

Not surprised one bit to see Morneau miss the rest of the season with that stress fracture back injury.

That is a fitting end to this injury-plagued and underachieving 2009 Twins season.

Mauer, Neshek, Bonser, Slowey, Liriano, Crede, Span, Cuddyer, Baker and whoever else was on the DL this year.

To make things worse, the front office failed miserably to upgrade this team following the 2008 season.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 10:49 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 309

Hopefully they are getting the injury bug out of their system this year and come back next year at full strength.

With a few additions.

Posted on September 14, 2009 at 10:56 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 310

I can understand the whiny strib article pointing out the negatives of the TCF stadium experience, as hopefully this will call attention to fixing them quickly, but all this nonsense I hear from neighbors complaining about hearing the PA and crowd noise is asanine.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 08:06 AM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 311

Mplsgreg,

I agree that the PA noise complaint by neighbors is asinine. They'll have to put up with 3 hours of that seven times a year. Suck it up. Almost all the other stadiums in the Big Ten and beyond are tucked on campus, surrounded by buildings and residential areas. They pour 50-90,000 into their stadiums every Saturday in the fall and have been doing it for decades, somehow figuring out parking and being near residential areas. It becomes part of the atmosphere of living near a major university.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 09:06 AM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 312

i have now selected seats for my 20 game pack.

left field bleechers here i come!

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 11:15 AM by annoyingcustomer Highlight this comment 313

Either the people living near the stadium have short memories or they were not around 30 years ago. Either way, what did they expect? It's an outdoor stadium with 50K people yelling. I can't wait until we get some cold/rain/snow and the local media jumps on that angle. You know it will happen. Same with Target Field. Predictable. Typical. D-bags.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 11:16 AM by John C Highlight this comment 314

Here is an article courtesy of the MBA regarding the installation of the 5th Street Murals by Craig David.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 11:20 AM by Jeff Highlight this comment 315

i don't what it is about this place, but there is just a culture of bitching and moaning about everything, which our local media plays up. I think it was the first game and you have to cut them some slack, it seems like very fixable things. watching the game on the big ten network, the stadium looked and sounded incredible, i mean, i couldn't believe i was actually watching my alma mater play in such a beautiful venue and have such a great college football atmosphere. the tv cameras would pan out beyond the scoreboard, showing a treelined campus, with the city skyline and a glowing sunset beyond. the announcer called minneapolis a jewel of a midwest city.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM by tim Highlight this comment 316

Full Schedule out.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:10 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 317

Well, a couple of things about that Strib article:

First, the sound was way too loud on the day I was there -- by a factor of about two to one. It was like being in a really loud movie theater -- and I was all the way at the top and in the back. A couple of times I actually snuck inside the weather enclosure just to get away from the sound.

To the sound designer's credit, everything was clear as a bell, but there was just too much of it.

They need to take a sound meter, measure the loudest sound of the band from the top row of the seating bowl, and use that as their absolute maximum. It is probably quite a bit lower than the sound system can handle, but I think they way overbuilt those speakers.

If you can hear it in St. Anthony Park (which abuts the St. Paul campus), that's too loud. (Of course, with sound, the direction of the wind is a contributing factor, and even lowering the volume won't prevent that 100%.)

However, one mention from one "neighbor" does not exactly a crisis make. I also would not be surprised to learn that the Strib had to seek out that person for a comment. I hate to kick the Strib, but that's their style. It is reporting the news if there are 100 people calling in and you interview five of them. Anything less is just stirring up ghosts.

Second, no cash registers?!? I almost can't believe that. There's no excuse for that, and they better get on the phone immediately to order some from cash-registers-now-or-else.com. Just calculating how much change to give can add significantly to the length of each transaction. That's crazy.

It is simply not acceptable to say that the concession stand employees will "get better" at it with time. Calculators and laminated cards will simply never be sufficient for the size of a crowd that place can hold, no matter how good those low-paid employees (or volunteers) get or how many stands are scattered throughout the stadium.

Maybe it was another strategy to discourage the Vikes from getting any ideas, or a negotiating ploy just in case they do.

Third, on the day of the scrimmage there were lots of security people, and it looked to me like there were more than enough to pat everyone down in a timely manner even if there had been a much larger crowd.

Did they get overconfident? From the sound of that article ("only two security screeners were assigned to pat down thousands of people entering Gate E") there were less screeners on opening day than during the scrimmage. This problem is pretty easily fixed.

But really, do they absolutely need to pat everyone down? That seems a little bit over the top. We've become a pretty paranoid society, but attending a college football game loses something intangible as soon as some stranger checks for a shoulder holster.

Security spotters and random bag checks would probably be more effective, cheaper, less intrusive and less time-consuming.

Finally, who is surprised to learn that there were some traffic snarl-ups? I'm more surprised to hear that large areas were free-flowing. You have to expect traffic and parking problems when a new facility opens. It will get better as fans figure it out.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:19 PM by Rick 318

Someone mentioned recently that the construction trailers have disappeared from the south lot. Mission control for the operation seems to have been moved to the ground floor of Ford Centre around the corner from Anytime Fitness. Nice to finally see some sort of activity in that building.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:20 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 319

Here are a couple personal suggestions.

1. I vote for the Twins to move their offices to the Ford Centre and then turn the space that they were going to occupy in the Administration Building in left field into a Twins Hall of Fame.

2. There has been some praise to having an auxillary scoreboard at TCF Bank Stadium, why not place an auxillary scoreboard over the Metropolitan Club at Target Field. I'm not sure if the left field seating areas could see it, but it is a thought!!

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:39 PM by Jeff Highlight this comment 320

Wonder if opening day on a Monday means the Twins will be the only game in MLB that day? Not sure how that plays with other ballpark openings.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:43 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 321

Nice to see the Twins get home games for Memorial Day weekend (even though they play a 9pm game on Memorial Day itself), 4th of July, and Labor Day.

Don't know why we are playing Colorado Rockies at home when we are playing the NL East next year?

Disappointed that the series at Miller Park is not on a weekend for the second consecutive year. Doesn't make sense to fly to Philadelphia than fly back to Milwaukee for mid-week series than fly back to New York for the weekend series at Citi Field.

I also wish they would get rid of that interleague weekend in May and move it all into June/July. I believe the Twins played at Wrigley Field on Labor Day weekend in 1997, the first year of Interleague play. Why not spread out interleague into June/July/August so the whole month of June is not Interleague.

All in all, its exciting to actually see a schedule now and make plans and see what ticket packages get what games.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:44 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 322

JCTwins,

They won't be the only game, there is actually more games on Monday then there are on Tuesday.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:48 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 323

Was I seeing things, or was the last game of 2010 a game vs. Toronto? It looks like a one game series.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:48 PM by Steeks Highlight this comment 324

No it's a four game set, September 30th to October 3rd. Anyone know if it's typical for new stadiums to have a day off after the opener?

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:51 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 325

Ahhh, I'm a moron, there are games in October. Wow, I'm slow today.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 12:53 PM by Steeks Highlight this comment 326

Anyone have insight on just how tough it is to get a pack(10 or so) of single game tickets at a new stadium? Sigh.

This wait between now and when single game tickets go on sale is going to be painful.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 1:13 PM by Chad Highlight this comment 327

Only TWO games at Fenway again next year? This unbalanced schedule needs to go.

I also don't understand why the Twins play the Braves at home again, as they did in 2007. They have never played in Atlanta since the inception of Interleague play in 1997. While I am happy to see the Twins visit Citi Field, they just played at Shea in 2007. When was the last time the Mets played in Minnesota? I was hoping for a Santana return to face his former team at Target Field.

I noticed no Sunday night home games (as of yet anyways), I wonder if ESPN will eventually pick a game or two to showcase Target Field?

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 1:33 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 328

I'm sure ESPN will be happy just showing the NYY, MYM, BOS games on Sunday nights, like they do every year.

:rolleyes:

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 1:36 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 329

Not as cool as the bird on webcam 1, but webcam 2 has a visitor at the 13:30 mark of today.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 1:50 PM by Oaks Highlight this comment 330

Check out the Webcam 2 shot at 1:30PM today 9/15!!! Is that Mothman? Is there an impending disaster? :P

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 1:52 PM by DeePee Highlight this comment 331

You beat me to it Oaks, by 2 minutes. Well done!

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 1:53 PM by DeePee Highlight this comment 332

I personally think that's way cooler than the bird.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 1:57 PM by DeePee Highlight this comment 333

you knew mlb would give them those holiday dates. i agree on the unbalanced scheduled, with yanks and red sox only here once, and those aren't weekend dates. Will be very cool to have a real july 4th major league baseball experience.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 1:59 PM by tim Highlight this comment 334

Regarding sound: They'll make tweaks. You can't simulate the real thing. It'll be fine. The speakers will be adjusted - some increased, some decreased, as you can't replicate a full stadium with cheering fans.

Cash registers: Again, they're not needed. Really. I've seen plenty of food operations in busy stadiums get by without them. Likewise, I've seen plenty of slow food service with cash registers. Again, this is an operational issue that can and will be fixed with time. Everyone needs to unbunch their undies.

Frisking: Also overkill, but again, this is an operational issue. I'll bet they open a few more gates and instruct staff to not give everyone the spanish inquisition, and things will improve greatly.

Stadium operations like this simply cannot be planned and executed perfectly on the first try. It will. not. happen. When Target Field opens, I'll bet they'll have cash registers - and I'll bet food lines will be intolerably long the first couple of games. That's the way it was with Nationals Park, too. It just takes time.

They'll make adjustments. Things will be OK.

Now, those piss yellow uniforms, on the other hand...

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 2:04 PM by Alex B. Highlight this comment 335

LTR on camera 1 @ 2pm.

Quick question on that...how far west does that track go? Does it stop in front of the HERC?

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 2:14 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 336

Since the opening game(s) at Target Field are sure to be a sell out anyway, why not schedule someone like KC, plus since that's Boston's only trip to town if any games get posponed other than the first one it will be difficult to schedule make ups. I also agree that MLB or someone is leaving a lot of $$$ on the table by not have Twins at Brewers on a weekend, where it's an automatic sell out with all the Minnesotat fans that make the trip by auto or train, (which is a great way to go).

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 2:33 PM by Trebor651 Highlight this comment 337

the off day on tuesday allows for a built-in makeup day if needed for the home opener. most outdoor ballparks do that (chicago did last year)

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 2:54 PM by annoyingcustomer Highlight this comment 338

I cannot believe we are getting hosed again for only 2 games again at Boston! I thought this year's two game series was a snafu but apparently not. I am really sick of the schedulers crapping on us.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 2:57 PM by DeePee Highlight this comment 339

Personally I'm glad we only had to play two games there this year.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 3:00 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 340

i see they are sticking with the saturday night home games. those are going to be great. summer nights under the lights.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 3:08 PM by tim Highlight this comment 341

Alex B, you have stuck up for reading prices off a sheet several times now. Are you a laminator salesman? Just wondering.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 3:14 PM by mplsgreg Highlight this comment 342

Alex,

It is certainly conceivable that calculators and laminated cards can become a functional system, and there's no doubt that the concession people will get faster, but this is about revenue. And because of longer transaction times, they will simply never be able to capture all of the possible revenue with a manual system. The cost of an automated system of cash registers (which also includes inventory control, accounting, loss prevention, etc.) will be made up in a nano-blink.

Now those uniforms...there we will absolutely agree. They weren't even gold so much as highlighter-yellow (at least on TV). Completely hideous.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 3:29 PM by Rick 343

Anyone know if it's typical for new stadiums to have a day off after the opener?

MLB very often schedules an open day between the season opener and the second game. They do this mainly for the Northern teams. This way if the scheduled home opener gets called off due to rain or April snowfall, there is a good shot of making up the game the following day on the open date instead of having to move it to later in the season. Theoretically, this way everyone who opening day tickets still sees the opening game and the home team is spared the major PR and fan relations nightmare of having people with opening day tickets get told that their game is getting made up on some open date or as part of a doubleheader much later in the year.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 3:44 PM by Jorge Highlight this comment 344

By my count, there will be 28 home day games. Most come in the first portion of the season with three right off the bat.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 3:44 PM by Twins Territory Highlight this comment 345

Of those 28, I would assume 13 are Sunday's?

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 3:49 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 346

Also no 4:10 games...had one of those in Cleveland and it was great.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 4:00 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 347

With the exception of one game in April(the lone home Saturday game of the month ????), one in May and one in September next year, I am really bummed to see that the Saturday games are going to be played as they are in the Metrodome at 6:05. I much prefer day games (noon on Saturdays because of the 3pm game of the week), there are plenty of night games during the season. I'm sure the Twins brass held many a meeting on this issue and decided that the 6:05 games would bring in more revenue, including TV advertising etc. What a shame. I hope they reconsider this for 2011. Hey Selig! How about scheduling doubleheaders so the World Series doesn't get played in November? There are so many things wrong with these unbalanced/interleauge games in the schedule. I'm sick of 18/19 games against our division foes. I could go on and on about this. But I think you get the point.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 4:10 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 348

By my quick count, 15 of the 30 MLB teams do the Monday opener, off day on Tuesday, play again on Wednesday. No teams in domed stadiums or retractible roofed ballparks are included in that list, but the Cubs, White Sox, Indians, Cardinals, Mets, Red Sox, Nationals and Royals amongst "northern" teams (but not the Tigers) doing the same.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 4:24 PM by Goober Highlight this comment 349

I see 4 saturday day games and 9 nights. Not too bad. The first two saturdays and last two saturdays of the season when weather is likely to be chillier. then hopefully late spring and summer evenings.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 4:38 PM by robin Highlight this comment 350

An electronic “Countdown to Outdoor Baseball” billboard is now live in Downtown Minneapolis at the corner of 1st Ave. and 6th St. and will track the number of the days until outdoor baseball returns to Minnesota. The Twins face Boston on Opening Day at Target Field on Monday, April 12 – just 209 days from today.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 5:01 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 351

DreDogg,

Ballpark Station is the last station, but the track continues west around the curve to allow for stacking of trains. They will be able to park 1 or 2 trains back there for when the game gets out so they can rapidly move people out.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 6:06 PM by David_Mpls Highlight this comment 352

I'm guessing that the schedule the Twins released today is a tentative schedule in regards to start times, and will be adjusted accordingly, once the local and national TV schedules are set. I have a feeling, we'll be seeing the Twins more on the national schedule, just to show off TF.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 6:17 PM by luke Highlight this comment 353

The wraparound of the LRT tracks behind HERC is also the first few yards of trackage for the Southwest and Bottineau lines. A down payment, if you will.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 6:22 PM by David Highlight this comment 354

Only a three day All Star break next season. Thank God! Four days without genuine, championship baseball is too long.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 6:32 PM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 355

Of course, I use the term, "Championship Baseball" as defined by the wording on the old rain checks. Hey! There's something else we'll get to see again. A ticket with a rain check on it.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 6:37 PM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 356

The LRT tracks which wrap around the HERC plant can hold a total of six cars, that's either three two-car trains, or two three-car trains.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 7:18 PM by Rick 357

Winona, will the tickets have rain checks on them like in the olden days?
I think our tickets next year will be similar to this years, the barcode is on a small tear-off section of the ticket. So, they'll scan you in, and when you come back on the rain-out makeup game, they'll just tear that small section off, as the barcode will be voided.

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 9:27 PM by luke Highlight this comment 358

Luke???????

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 11:06 PM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 359

hey nothing like having the main terminus for 4 LRT lines (hiawatha, central, southwest, bottineau) be a frickin' out-dated, mid-20th century answer to waste management refuse burner! i mean way to think big on this one politicians, met council, hennepin county, city of minneapolis, etc.

and no i am not talking about smell or anything like that (i know that there is none), but talk about absolutely NOT putting our best foot forward as a metro if the HERC is not torn down sooner rather than later and this is where these 4 different LRT lines are going to be meeting up.

sorry.....when i read any post about the HERC is still seems to make me annoyed with the damn thing.

later,
beta

Posted on September 15, 2009 at 11:57 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 360

Betaband,

I've seen some drawings where the HERC is gone and there's a modern train station on that land.

When you look at the big brown building, think Opportunity.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 12:02 AM by Rick 361

i know rick.....i know......it is just so hard sometimes! ;-)

HERC = opportunity, HERC = opportunity, HERC = opportunity, HERC = opportunity, HERC = opportunity

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 12:44 AM by Betaband Highlight this comment 362

Marazati????

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 06:53 AM by luke Highlight this comment 363

I'm sure they'll just reset the bar code so they can scan it again.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 08:13 AM by Camden Highlight this comment 364

What amazes me is that some people (luke?) seem to think that outdoor baseball has never been done - anywhere - before target field, and that rain delays will cause absolute panic with rain checks, bar codes, tickets, etc.! Holy crap people, have you really never been to an outside game (even a saints or a gophers, if not run down to kc?!?!) Good lord!

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 08:53 AM by outdoor baseball Highlight this comment 365

Seats are going back in 101...

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 09:15 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 366

It also looks like they've installed the seats just ouside the event suites next to the Metro Club (unless the camera's playing tricks). I think those seats are the same as (or similar to) what will be in the Champion's Club section - perhaps that will be filled in soon.

Question - if you look at the 3D seat-view rendering, there's an extra little triangular section of seats off to the side of section 327, which is not currently present in the actual park. Are they goin to add this later, or keep as is?

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 10:12 AM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 367

MAGIC NUMBER: 23

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 10:26 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 368

I looked, and I know I've seen it before, but I can't seem to find this information again.

When do single game tickets go on sale? February?

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 10:35 AM by Chad Highlight this comment 369

Chad you haven't seen an official date yet, there isn't one. It will probably be pretty late (after Twins fest is my bet), after they sell all the season tickets they can, then pre-sale for season-ticket holders, then general on-sale. I haven't even received my renewal package yet.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 10:52 AM by Camden Highlight this comment 370

Can anybody estimate how much longer until all the seats are installed?

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 11:23 AM by MIKE Highlight this comment 371

the deadline for seat installation is in November

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 11:31 AM by some guy Highlight this comment 372

MAGIC NUMBER: 22

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 3:08 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 373

I read that article from the number 5 about the glitches at TCFBS and how they're going to fix them for the game against Cal this week (it was posted on BallparkMagic's facebook site).

The article said that Aramark (the concessionaire) was "run thin" because they also serviced the Obama thing at Target Center and the Twins game at the Dome.

I'm not sure about the Target Center, but I thought Centerplate did concessions at the Dome, not Aramark. Unless it's one in the same, but I didn't think so. And the article also said that they didn't have all the gates open???

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 4:54 PM by luke Highlight this comment 374

Rick --
I am surprised to hear your take on the greedy landowners around the Metrodome. The strib is broke, and put most of their land up for sale a couple of two ago. Wilf almost bought it, but backed out due to the difficulty of arranging financing. If/when the time comes, he will buy up all the land and build some megaplex surrounding the rebuilt Metrodome. IMO it is this opportunity that caused him to cancel the earlier deal with Anoka County. He knows what he wants and it ain't the far suburbs.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/11705101.html

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 5:08 PM by Dave T Highlight this comment 375

Trosy, another question if you don't mind, about that section in your photos. It seems to straddle a couple sections below. Do you know, from your seats, if you feel like they are true infield seats or kind of straddling infield and outfield? And I think you said the angle was decent towards home. I was able to sit in 132 last night and it seemed like it and 133 might be similar in relation to the infield, though of course the angle was bad.
The section in your photo looked very long. Maybe as long as some of those in the Metrodome. Though if it's 24 seats that would still be an improvement. It just looks longer than that to me.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 5:29 PM by robin Highlight this comment 376

"greedy landowners around the Metrodome"

How are investors wishing to get fair value for their property greedy?

And, how are private business owners who expect the public to build them a means of production which will vastly increase their profits not greedy?

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 6:35 PM by twinznut Highlight this comment 377

BOTH Aramark and Centerplate have a presence at the Metrodome.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 6:47 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 378

I never called the land owners greedy (see my actual comment above to see that I acknowledged that trying to get the most for your land is perfectly acceptable).

But, as far as I know, the Strib still owns a bunch of that land. That makes them very powerful with the city. As long as they have that kind of power, a stadium on the Metrodome site couldn't look anything like any of those renderings you may have seen.

If Wilf does buy that land, well that's a different story. But I don't think anybody can predict now what will happen based on A) recession, B) the Strib's restructuring, and C) Wilf's finances and intentions. (I could throw in the Legislature and the city elections coming up.)

Also, I'm not trying to predict what's going to happen at all. But I'm making observations about what may be best for the city and the Vikings -- and it ain't a new stadium on the Metrodome site, at least not right now.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 7:11 PM by Rick 379

I'm surprised this wasn't posted or commented on earlier (click my name). A nice story on the schedule from page 2 of the Strib, which included the following quote about the weather:

"Predictably, the first comment on the Star Tribune's online story about the new schedule Tuesday was, "Too bad it will probably snowed out!" Aside from a curiously missing verb, this comment suffers from a form of hysterical misinformation.

According to weather.com, the average high temperature on April 12 in Minneapolis is 55 degrees. With a 3:10 start, most of the game should be played above 50 degrees -- not snow-friendly weather.

As for those worried about the end of the season, the Twins' final home game is Oct. 3. The average high temperature for Oct. 3 in Minneapolis is 65 degrees. Even the average high in early November, the absolute latest the postseason would go, is near 50. So let's stop obsessing about the weather. It will be a little chilly early, and there will be a few rainouts.

It's what we call outdoor baseball. Get used to it."

Let's see more articles like this!

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 7:16 PM by Goober Highlight this comment 380

Yeah, I realize that actual 'rain checks' on tickets is probably obsolete, but it would be nice to see it on the tickets anyway, even if it fuels more hysteria from those who fear outdoor baseball. I like to think of it as a nod to the past. Besides, the Twins would still need to let ticket holders know that there would be a procedure and a policy in place should a game or two be postponed. They can't simply send tham home with no idea that the ticket would still be valid for another game at a future date.
And use the old icon that was a fixture on every ticket at nearly every park for the last century.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 8:42 PM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 381

The average Strib commenter has the intelligence of a cantelope.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 8:42 PM by OG Jeff Highlight this comment 382

Not a nice thing to say about cantaloupes.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 9:09 PM by robin Highlight this comment 383

that's an insult to canteloupes everywhere

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 9:10 PM by some guy Highlight this comment 384

thanks clublevel. what's the difference between the two? does Centerplate do the concession stands and Aramark do the suites or something? I didn't know two concessionaires could do one place...

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 9:27 PM by luke Highlight this comment 385

Sid says the lights at TF will be tested for the first time oct. 5th.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 10:09 PM by tim Highlight this comment 386

I was employed by Aramark for a while and it was a terrible experience. They are by far the WORST company I have ever worked for. I've been to a few ballparks where they were the concessionaire, and the food has been awful. There take on the Primanti Brothers sandwich in Pittsburgh made me want to puke. I had a shriveled, cold hot dog in Denver that made a dome dog taste like Filet Mignon.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 10:19 PM by DuluthTim Highlight this comment 387

I could be wrong, but I think Aramark just supplements Centerplate. I think they just do aisle work (are they the ones in black?). I know the Twins also have someone that does the season ticket holder stadium club that is separate from Center plate, thus they can get some other beers etc.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 10:25 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 388

One does the concessions (Centerplate I believe) and the other does the suites, the two Terrace Suites, and the Mirassou Sun Room.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 10:44 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 389

the lights on the plaza look sweet right now

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 11:27 PM by Erik Highlight this comment 390

Sid's alway's great for some Target Field Nuggest.

"The lights at Target Field will be lit for the first time on Oct. 5. The stadium lights will be on for 100 consecutive hours as a part of a testing process. That's the Monday night that the Vikings host the Packers, so it wouldn't be a surprise if ESPN includes the Twins' new home in its broadcast. The Gophers also host Wisconsin the previous Saturday, the Twins play their last game at the Dome the next afternoon, then the Vikings face Favre's former team."

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 11:58 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 391

Just realized that's my birthday, should be an awesome day.

Posted on September 16, 2009 at 11:58 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 392

My birthday too- that's funny...and in reply to Sid's comment- the final game at the Dome is Oct. 4th unless Sid is predicting that the Twins will win the coin flip this year....

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM by Matt Highlight this comment 393

Sid is still alive???????

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 02:44 AM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 394

The Gophers also host Wisconsin the previous Saturday, the Twins play their last game at the Dome the next afternoon, then the Vikings face Favre's former team."

Sid says, the Gophers play saturday, the Twins play their last game at the dome the next afternoon wish is Sunday, then Monday night is the Vikings game...

Sid was correct, i dont understand why you are questioning it Matt

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 07:08 AM by Vikeologist Highlight this comment 395

Let's not forget the Twin Cities Marathon is Oct. 4 as well. I'll be the one with the agonizing look on my face at mile 21. It's going to be a hopping weekend around here!

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 07:21 AM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 396

And don't forget the Wild's home opener on Tuesday evening. That is gonna be one heck of a week, sports-wise.

Sat - Minn vs Sconie @ TCF
Sun - Last reg season Twins game @ the dome, TC Marathon
Mon - Vikes vs Packers, Farve drama
Tues - Hockey's back, new GM, Coach, etc.

I'll be at the Twins and Wild games.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 07:42 AM by Dodgeboy Highlight this comment 397

That will be one fun weekend.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 07:42 AM by luke Highlight this comment 398

Sorry Tim somehow just read completely over your line.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 08:17 AM by Camden Highlight this comment 399

Any ideas what the scalpers might be asking for tix for this Saturday's Gopher-Cal game? I'm thinking about reliving some old memories (graduated from the U in '92) and taking my bike down to the U, have a beer or two at Stub & Herbs, and possibly take in the Gopher game, if prices aren't too insane, which I suspect they will be.

Also--I wonder when tickets for the April 2 & 3 exhibition games vs the Cards will go on sale?

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 09:02 AM by crfire163 Highlight this comment 400

Dodgeboy,

And of course, let NO MAN forget, the event that will trump all the events you mentioned in your post, (drumroll please) -

The Timberwolves preseason opener against Milwaukee in Mankato on Sunday Oct 4. Yahoo!!

Do you think anyone will actually be there?

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 09:12 AM by Expectorate Highlight this comment 401

Robin - Section 121 does straddle the infield/out field. It is between 3rd base and the infield dirt/outfield grass line. It is not inside of third base, rather right out side of it. Yes there is 24 seats in that section per row. If you take the High Res pic that Rick posted of the grass installation that he took from the parking ramp, turn it into a pdf, you can zoom in quite close a physically count the seats.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 09:31 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 402

Any way to post a PDF here? Anyone know?

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 09:42 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 403

trosy29,

Just link to it like anything else. If it's not online somewhere to link to, email it to me and I'll host it here. (rick at you-know-the-drill dot com)

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 09:47 AM by Rick 404

Per Sid's column:

"The lights at Target Field will be lit for the first time on Oct. 5. The stadium lights will be on for 100 consecutive hours as a part of a testing process. That's the Monday night that the Vikings host the Packers, so it wouldn't be a surprise if ESPN includes the Twins' new home in its broadcast."

Can't wait for those webcam shots at night!

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 09:48 AM by Eric Highlight this comment 405

Matt, coin flips are no more. It's all about who has the better record in head-to-head match-ups over the regular season now to determine where a tie-breaker will be played.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 09:59 AM by DeePee Highlight this comment 406

Rick - I'll do that. It is the pic that you took from the Parking ramp after the sod installation from the "Leaves of Grass" post. I just turned it into a pdf so you can zoom way in on areas. I highlighted our seats from that pic, so thanks!! I could pick out our exact seats.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 10:00 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 407

Today, by the way, seems to be the most logical day for the Twinks to practice on TF. After 9/20 they will be out of town until 10/1 when KC comes to town for the last Dome series. That is unless they make the "P" word of course!

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 10:08 AM by DeePee Highlight this comment 408

Re: Fun October Weekend.

Don't forget Wilco plays at Roy Wilkins on Friday October 2!

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 10:09 AM by freealonzo Highlight this comment 409

They have a JLG lift right behind home plate. The only thing I think this would be there for is to install the netting. What else would they need a lift there for?

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 10:11 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 410

New question:

When looking at the right field seating (right below the plaza), is there going to be some sort of barrier on the ledge right above the last row? I would assume they are putting up fencing/railing to deter the winos on the plaza from falling into the people in that last row.

Also, would that said railing be set back a foot or so? I could see (if it is located directly behind/above the last row) people on the plaza leaning over and being right above the heads of the people seated in the last row...and spilling everything in sight.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 10:28 AM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 411

They are finally finishing up seats on the 3rd base Dougout Box. Looks like they ran out of seat parts for the upper deck. Must be waiting for a truck.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 412

This really isn't related to the current discussion, but I stopped by NBA City to watch the late NFL games on Sunday, and I was surprised how nice the place was inside. It'll be a good place to watch games next year if you're unable to get a ticket.

The bartender also said that next year they'll have tables outside on the walkway leading up to the Plaza, so it'll be interesting to see if that pans out.

It just blows that most existing bars/restaurants near Target Field have that ridiculous "Happy Hour specials not offered on event days!" policy. Bah!

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 10:40 AM by Chad Highlight this comment 413

Hey. Sorry everyone but I am going to use this site really quick to see if anyone is interested in some concert tickets. Sorry Rick in advance if I offend you.

I have 2 tickets to Dave Matthews Band at Principle Park in Des Moines IA for September 25th. I have to go to a work function in Chicago over that weekend, so I am unable to attend. $155 is what I paid for them. Asking the same OBO.

Principle Park is where the Des Moines Cubs play so there is my baseball tie so I don't feel as bad for making this post. ;-) Good chance to see a Minor League Stadium and a great concert

Click my name to email if you are interested.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 10:59 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 414

Has there been any word on the Twins taking some swings within their new digs? You would have thought with a off day, that they would be there today.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:10 PM by bphj Highlight this comment 415

TCF Bank stadium will have a free open house on 10/4/09 from 1-4 i think anyone can go and walk around self guided

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:20 PM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 416

crfire163,

I'm going to the Cal game this weekend and got tickets on Stub Hub last week for only $17 over face value ($66.99 for a $50 ticket). The seats are upper deck corner halfway up, the last section of the horseshoe on the visitors side (won't be able to see the massive scoreboard). My wife and I are also going to ride our bikes to the game and will also be quaffing a beer at Stub & Herb's. If you check today, I bet you can get a ticket in the upper deck for somewhere in the $70-80 range.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:27 PM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 417

Two things:

I've been skeptical of this whole early batting practice idea since I first heard about it. (And I was never able to get confirmation on it from anyone.)

I just can't imagine that either the construction people, or the safety people, or the lawyers, or the groundskeepers, or well ANYBODY would be interested in having a bunch of baseballs flying around there with active construction in progress. Doesn't make sense.

Beyond that, Major League baseball teams have pretty strict schedules. How would they fit that in on a game day? And who wants to do it on an off day?

On another subject, despite what Sid reports today, there is no plan to turn on the lights on October 5. There are a bunch of things which have to happen first, and while it could happen as early as that day, nobody is officially planning on it. I'm not saying that Sid made it up, but he got it wrong.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:28 PM by Rick 418

trosy29 wants you to see where his seats are. (Click.)

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:30 PM by Rick 419

Here's a different question...

Will smoking be allowed at TF? Like being able to have a cigar friendly section etc. Or have the smoking Nazi's put a stop to all outdoor smoking in public places now?

What would Bob Casey say?

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:34 PM by MarkW Highlight this comment 420

I can't answer the question. But I did notice that sometime during this season the ghost of Bob Casey finally vacated the Metrodome (the recording of his "no smoking" speech has been replaced by a live announcement the last couple of games I've gone to).

We love ya, but walk into the light, Bob. Into the light...

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:37 PM by Rick 421

Great points (as always) Rick! Thanks!

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:46 PM by bphj Highlight this comment 422

maybe he got it wrong, but the guy, (Sid), talks to DSP pretty regularly. And st peter was the same twins official touting a batting practice session during this homestead.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:51 PM by tim Highlight this comment 423

That seat pic for for Robin. She wanted to be able to zoom up close and count the seats. I could only zoom in one level on my picture viewer so I turned it to a PDF and you can zoom in greatly. Not trying to tell everyone where I am sitting by any means.

While the seats thing is out there, would anybody be interested in trading seats for a game? It would be fun to catch games from different areas in the park.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 1:53 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 424

Tim,

DSP was actually quoted as saying that they hoped to do some BP during this homestand. I'm just saying that I can't imagine how that could happen. But you never know. If somebody sees a batting cage on the webcam, give a shout.

And if Sid is right about the lights, there are some very important people in the project who don't know about it.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 2:14 PM by Rick 425

I bought some tickets on StubHub for the first time this week. Now I'm getting emails mentioning that purchase directly from the Twins.

Is StubHub owned by MLB? Endorsed? Can anybody clarify the relationship?

My short review: Selecting tickets was a breeze. The prices were, meh (roughly face value at my price level). The fees were outrageous: $16.95 for overnight Fedex -- the only shipping option available -- and $5.00 for "convenience". I could have bought another ticket at the box office for that.

Unless I'm in a bind, I won't be doing that again any time soon.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 2:20 PM by Rick 426

(Perhaps it's time to start a low-cost or no-cost alternative right here at BallparkMagic...)

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 2:22 PM by Rick 427

I agree rick, stubhub is a racket we should just trade and sell tickets here, im looking for tickets to any game this year at tcf.. maybe a cold game vs msu?? that would be the cheapest i assume...anyone help me out?

could trade twins tickets also...lets put them out of biz

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 2:50 PM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 428

Rick, I have purchased tix from StubHub quite a few times. Sometimes you can get great deals, other times, you get hosed. It primarily depends on the event. You really have to look and check often before events to find good deals.

I picked up two tickets to the ChiSox/Twins in ChiTown this last April and I got great deals. We sat 2nd row, 1 section past 1st base. Tix were $53 a pop. Paid a Service Fee of $10.60 and an eTicket Delivery Fee of $4.97. Total came to $121.57, so about $60 bucks a seat. I just printed the tickets so that was cheaper on the freight. (Downside, you don't get a actual ticket stub for memorabilia.) I believe that the seller has the option on how they want to do ticket delivery but I am not sure. Talking with Sox fans around us who of course were season ticket holders, said that the seats we were sitting in go for around $200 a piece in the summertime. So, I think we got a great deal.

I am very interested in selling/trading some tix for next year. I will have quiet a few games that I will need to sell, and it is really not my goal to get rich. If I break even I am happy, cause I know that there are games that I won't be able to make it to and just simply can't afford all those games.

Once the 40 game plans come out I will have a really good grasp on what games I will have available to sell. If anyone here is interested, let me know and I will keep you in the loop. We are Section 121, Row 16, Seats 7-10.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 2:52 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 429

Webcam 1 sure looks like they are in fact putting up the net.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 3:19 PM by DeePee Highlight this comment 430

trosy29,

I've also bought StubHub many times (including this Saturday's Cal game) and I do believe that the seller is the one who determines how the tickets get to you and it can vary.

Rick, if notice StubHub has a direct link on the Twins website and they have definitely developed relationships with not just MLB, but also various college, pro teams etc. as the "official" ticket broker.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 3:24 PM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 431

Smoking will be prohibited on Target Field property. This was built into the ballpark legislation that was signed into law in May 2006.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 3:44 PM by Mike Highlight this comment 432

I just went to the last two Twins games this week and bought tickets on Stub Hub like two weeks ago and had to pay seperate shipping on two diffrent games even though they were purchased minutes apart. Rick is right they hose you on the shipping it was like $16.95 and had to pay that twice so it was like $34 just for shipping. It seems like your getting a good deal until you pay all the hidden fees. We sat like 5 rows behind the Twins dugout for about $45 a game after all the convenience charges.

I am from up north and had not seen the new ballpark in person. We walked around the outside of it and all the pictures people take of the park are great but seeing it in person, we have a gem of a park here.

My only concern is parking I didnt see alot of parking around other than the parking ramps and I hate parking in them cause it takes forever to get out of them. I saw alot of small parking lots that belonged to diffrent business like the Ford Centre and was wondering if they will be available to rent during games. It will be nice having the light rail there if you dont want to deal with parking situation.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 3:53 PM by firedog Highlight this comment 433

That is because you probably bought from 2 different sellers. Each seller ships their own tickets after they are purchased, thus the 2 fees for shipping.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 4:12 PM by Vikeologist Highlight this comment 434

My tickets were shipped from California, and looked like they'd never been handled. The whole thing seemed highly automated.

I didn't see an option to print my own tickets, which I probably would have done if it had been offered. But how could that work unless the teams were in full cooperation with StubHub? I mean, they would have to be tied in to MLB ticketing servers in order to print tickets, which would imply more than just a casual endorsement type of relationship.

I've never researched this, but now I'm very curious: Are the teams scalping their own tickets? (I wouldn't blame them if they were, but I'd sure want to know.)

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 4:17 PM by Rick 435

thanks for the information, Trosy (and Rick). I might contact you later for a game or two if still available. I was hoping your section was 122 when I was asking about it earlier, because I might have a chance to buy some there, and your section looked real good.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 4:17 PM by robin Highlight this comment 436

Rick and others-
I have purchased tickets via ticketmaster, stubhub and ebay on many occasions. I have gotten some very good deals and some terrible ones in all venues. From what I understand Ticketmaster owns StubHub and a few of the other "ticket broker" sites out there. In a sense, Ticketmaster is the equivalent to the box office and StubHub is equivalent to the scalper even though there are more direct paths to tickets. The people at TM saw the killing stubhub was making as fans listed prices on unwanted tickets and wanted a piece of the pie, so the bought in. I am not sure of the relationship of the two to Ebay but i have seen direct links to stubhub and ticketmaster on the ebay site. I may be wrong on this part, but i thought i read somewhere that there was also an agreement not too long ago between entities like MLB and NFL to use Stubhub as official ticket sites. Not necessarily as THE GO-To sites, but official none-the-less. Which is also why there are direct stubhub links on the twins and other MLB sites. In the end, they all cash in. Nothing like paying a convenience fee on a convenience fee.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 4:19 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 437

I very much like the idea of a tix exchange in conjunction with this site and wonder if Rick would be able to set one up. A straight value for value understanding would be nice, along with some apparatus for keeping scammers and scumbags (not that there are any here to begin with) away.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 4:26 PM by twinznut Highlight this comment 438

StubHub = TicketMaster?!?!?!?

Yikes. Another reason to Never Use Them Again.

I really should have been paying closer attention. It just got more likely that you'll be able to swap tickets here.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 4:27 PM by Rick 439

maz - actually, i don't see the minnesota vs. michigan state game on halloween night being a cheaper ticket. 1.) it is on halloween night which is pretty cool and will attract a lot of people who want to dress up and party in stadium village/dinkytown both before & after the game 2.) it is a big ten conference game against a decent squad in MSU 3.) the game is at night and will be a nationally televised game on BTN

if you are dead-set on a cheaper ticket and don't mind watching a non-big ten team perhaps consider the minnesota vs. south dakota state game on 11/14. i know south dakota state doesn't sound too sexy, but hey what can you do?!

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 4:27 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 440

I can't believe that in all this talk about third party ticket brokers, that no one, at least from what I saw, mentioned Ticket King!
I've considered the third parties by which I will probably have to obtain decent tickets to TF for next year, and I'm curious, has anyone tried Ticket King (I think they're in Hudson??) and whether or not they're a good group to go through.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 4:28 PM by luke Highlight this comment 441

I would predict ticket price/availability at TCFBS will be more weather-dependent than opponent-dependent. As soon as the temperature dips below 50 degrees (60??) you will see more people willing to give up their seats for a more reasonable price. It will take 3-4 years for the local skin to toughen up a little bit for late season football. Plus the novelty wears off as the games go by.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 4:50 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 442

MAGIC NUMBER: 21

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 5:37 PM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 443

I've sold on Stubhub several times. As soon as the buyer buys I get an e-mail with a shipping label. I am told to IMMEDIATELY put that label on a FedEx Package and ship it. I get paid 7 days after FedEx tracks it as "received."

The buyer is picking up the cost of the FedEx overnight. I pay 15% of the selling price to Stubhub for the convenience. I will say I've had better luck selling on Stubhub over Craigslist, as there is more credibility.

Next, I bought Stubhubs for a Cardinals game and used my tickets on the wrong day (I'm an idiot). The gate attendant told me to go to the ticket window and get official tickets printed (still for the wrong date). There is an "official" relationship between MLB and Stubhub, as they were willing to work with me. They were unwilling, however, to trade me tickets, as "you bought it on Stubhub."

In short, I like selling and buying there because I know it will be a quick and easy transaction, and I get paid via Paypal.

I bought tickets there for Cleveland and all in with fees we still got a great deal with very little hassle.

I have not had the option as a seller to do the e-tickets, so I'm not sure how that works. I can't figure out how the paper ticket gets turned into an e-ticket.

Hope that clarifies some.

I, too, would be very interested in partnering with a few people to 1. swap sweats and 2. pick up a second pair of seats for a game when friends and family want to go with us. It might be practical to swap the second pair for a different game when the other party wants 4 tickets. Considering the hot secondary market that is likely to occur on better seats, I'd love to do that with someone.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 5:54 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 444

I'm interested too. Not sure I want to swap "sweats" with you, however.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 6:04 PM by robin Highlight this comment 445

The MBA construction report for Sept is now out. They say "Burn-in and aiming is tentatively scheduled for late September."

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 6:29 PM by David_Mpls Highlight this comment 446

I'm up for swapping seats too.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 6:33 PM by Matt Highlight this comment 447

Couple of things on StubHub -

1) MLB signed an agreement to be the official secondary marketplace for tickets two years ago. All but two clubs (Red Sox and one other) use them.

2) Both the individual club and MLB get fee + a percentage of the premiums generated per sale (part of the 10% buyers and 15% sellers premium).

3) The Twins were one of the few clubs not to fully integrate this year. Because of that, Twins tickets are sold the "old way" - hard tickets sent by the seller via FedEx (which costs the buyer more). Most other clubs now use e-ticket delivery (and in fact if your club is fully integrated, the ONLY way you can sell tickets is e-ticket). This has the advantage of validating the barcodes directly with the team, but also prohibits selling of any discount or free tickets. Since the Twins are moving to a new ticketing system next year, I presume they will fully integrate as well (this will also allow season ticket holders who list tickets to have another payment option - credit proceeds to the season ticket account.

4) Under the terms of the contract, each club receives information about every sale - buyer and seller email and address info, event date and ticket price for "marketing purposes". Not sure what the teams are doing with this info (and I can't get any of my contacts at a couple clubs to tell me), but I'm not a big fan of this part of the deal.

I had hoped the MLB deal was also going to offer some relief for season ticket holders and buyers on the fee front, but no dice. Other than more exposure, there is little benefit to the season ticket holder that just wants to break even over the old TicketMarketplace system that many clubs used.

I also don't like that, for the most part, you can no longer buy physical tickets, but just get an e-ticket. However, that does allow tickets to be on sale up to a few hours before game time.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 7:29 PM by jfh Highlight this comment 448

I think I still get the best price and best choice of seats if I deal with the on-street scalpers. There is still a misconception in MN that scalping is illegal(and that these guys are slimy which I actually disagree with as they provide a valuable service to those who want tickets on the spot often below the prices the team charges at their on-site box office). This simply isn't true as the law changed a few years ago. I enjoy the back and forth negotiations and the ability to sit in different spots at the various TC venues.

StubHub is highway robbery for both the buyer and the seller with all the tacked on percentages. The only way to win is if there is little to no demand for a specific event. Also, I've found it is very useful for places/stadiums that don't allow scalping. Some places are very strict on the reselling of tickets near the venue outside the state of MN.

I actually like Craigslist. Free classified advertising for just about anything imaginable and it is person to person so the transaction is usually local for cash. You get the product and the seller gets cold hard cash. Hard to beat.

Ebay is another good place to look for tickets. You can score some nice deals if you are patient and know what you are doing. There is the added protection of Paypal and your credit card company along with the built-in Ebay feedback system.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 7:40 PM by Max Highlight this comment 449

jfh,

Thanks for the extensive clarification (which I've highlighted)! I'm wondering if any of that will make what I'm about to propose impossible...

I'm willing to put together some sort of Twins Ticket Trading Club (3TC) on this site. It would be important to me that it be a private, invitation-only (or maybe application/petition) sort of thing, so it doesn't become a cesspool of questionable characters and risky transactions. To that end, we'd probably want to make sure we have confirmed contact info on everybody up front.

I don't think I'm willing to actually broker the trades, handle any of the money, or do the fulfillment. Members would have to work out such things among themselves. As such, it could be even trades without money changing hands or sales. Wouldn't matter to me.

Does that sound like a feasible approach?

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 7:46 PM by Rick 450

I have considered trying to figure out a similar kind of forum for trading seats Rick, but thinking it through it seems like inevitably money needs to change hands.

I would certainly be a fan of the above if it could be screened to minimize the scammers and such.

Maybe Paypal registration would be a requirement?

In response to the above, like I said, I've found Stubhub to be a better place to sell for the convenience and reputable-ness of it, where people in general are fairly skeptical of CL sellers overall. Besides, having to work directly with the seller does have its downsides.

JFH excellent light on "full integration" which makes perfect sense as both a buyer at other parks and seller as a silent partner STH.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 8:03 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 451

luke - ticket king is headquartered/based in minneapolis, not husdon, wisconsin. they have offices in both downtown minneapolis and i believe downtown st. paul.

i have used them a few times. primarily to give my business to a local minneapolis company. they do a good job and are about the same as stubhub imo.

badjuggler - have to disagree with you. the ticket scarcity will absolutely have to do with who the U of M is playing as opposed to the weather forecast. you don't think gophers fans are going to show up to a U of M vs. USC or U of M vs. Michigan or a U of M vs. Wisconsin game just because it happens to be in November as opposed to Sept/Oct? not buying that logic at all.

max - you wouldn't happen to be in the ticket scalping/brokering business would you?! ;-)

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 8:37 PM by Betaband Highlight this comment 452

I am not a broker, but do have plenty of buy/sell experiences with tickets. My point was that I don't have a problem buying or selling at market value (which is why I don't understand the vehement hatred for scalpers). Sometimes the ticket prices goes through the roof (see: Vikings vs Packers on Oct 5th, MN vs Wisconsin on Oct. 3rd, or even Twins vs. Royals on Oct 4th) and other times the on street scalpers are selling tickets for pennies on the dollar. Things go both ways and that is what is great about our free market/capitalist economy. The market demand drives price.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 8:49 PM by Max Highlight this comment 453

Time will tell. I still think there is a pretty large contingent of "fans" who have grown up believing a sporting event always happens at 70 degrees under a teflon sky and the thought of putting on a few layers of clothes or (heaven forbid) a hat and a pair of gloves is simply unconscionable. I hope I am wrong.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 8:51 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 454

-jfh-
Thanks for the more detailed response. Sorry i was pretty vague. I was pretty busy and was just tossing out what i knew off the top of my head and tried to be clear of the things i wasn't sure of but recalled in the event that it triggered something in another reader who could elaborate. so again thanks for clarifying.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM by Jared Highlight this comment 455

I think it's a good idea, Rick. It could be as simple as a list-serve.

Also, I remember seeing a picture of Barry Bonds taking BP at PacBell before the grass was even installed. So if nothing else, it'll be a good photo-op.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 9:10 PM by Elston Gunn Highlight this comment 456

thanks Beta. wasn't sure where they were located exactly, only that Dark Starr and the other guys on "The Sports Show" on the CW talk about Ticket King alot.

I'd be interested in a ticket group around here if we were so inclined to form one.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 9:10 PM by luke Highlight this comment 457

I think a trading site would be great, if you could somehow enforce the "trade" aspect and have cash/payment change hands only to offset the price difference of the tickets involved. I agree that PayPal registration should probably be required and used somehow.

I don't want to see straight sales (unless the are at cost only). Too many other places for people that want to pay their mortgage with tickets. I'd be interested in trading with real fans to sit in other areas of the park.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 9:28 PM by jfh Highlight this comment 458

Two comments here - First, I finally got my hands on a pair of tickets for TCF Bank Stadium! I'll be at the SDSU game November 15th!

Second, what I think you do with a ticket exchange is what another site I frequent does - set-up an area just for tickets. State the "official policy" is that tickets can only be bought or sold for face value, and then Rick, you have no party to what goes on there.

What the happens is, people will post something to the effect of, "NEED - four (4) tickets to this Sunday's Twins/Tigers game, home run porch preferable, but price and location negotiable - e-mail me at iwanttickets@ticketsaregood.com" Same in reverse for tix available, "SELLING four (4) tickets for Gophers vs. Cal this Sat, in the Presidents Suite - $1,000,000,000 per ticket - e-mail me at ihavetickets@ticketsaregood.com"

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 9:32 PM by Goober Highlight this comment 459

I'm in full support for a ticket trade option with people from this site/baseball-fever. To start I got a couple tickets for the Oct 2nd game vs. Royals (1st game of series) I work if anyone is interested. First Row Section 100.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 9:33 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 460

Just because I haven't dealt with them in the past, but is StubHub pretty reputable, trustworthy, that sort of thing - and not just looking to make a quick buck?

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 9:36 PM by luke Highlight this comment 461

Yeah they're reputable, but rip you off on fees. I've bought off of them once for a game at St. Louis this year, never sold and didn't have any problems. They are in a partnership with MLB.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 9:43 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 462

Yes Luke, StubHub is pretty reputable, trustworthy, that sort of thing - and they are also looking to make a quick buck. And with their fees, the do make a good fortune. They double dip - hitting up both the buyer and they seller. All that said - if you find a good buy on StubHub (that price is set by the seller) - I don't think that you can go wrong dealing with them. I like the way that you can click on any section in a venue and see all of the tickets and prices listed in that section.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 9:48 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 463

Rick - if you set up some sort of a ticket exchange, keep in mind that not everyone wants to "swap" tickets. There are a lot of full season ticket holders that will have some games where they just want to sell at face value and get their money back. Because they have tickets for every game - they are not looking for a swap. Unless they list their tickets at inflated prices on StubHub, they can't break even.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 9:56 PM by clublevelfan Highlight this comment 464

Agree with 464 (clublevelfan). Likewise there are many who don't have tickets to swap and would like to buy from someone they trust or have something in common with. You could keep it to face value or trade w/price differential. Face will likely be a little more than the season ticket holder price, but the reason the season ticket holder has a small discount is they take the risk, pay the interest, etc. to buy a whole chunk up front, almost certainly will lose some games due to bad weather, last minute problems, etc. Face value would still keep the price within reason and allow for the undeniable difference in demand for a game with the Yankees, for example, as opposed to a monday school night date with the Royals. (I am assuming Twins will charge a different face value to such games.) Maybe a very small transaction fee for the manager of the site to cover extra work involved. Or better, an occasional donation of tickets to that worthy fellow.

Posted on September 17, 2009 at 11:48 PM by robin Highlight this comment 465

Officially TCFBS is the first LEED certified stadium in the nation. The US Green Building Council awarded it a Silver rating which means it achieved 33-38 points out of 69.

The rating levels are:
Certified 26-32
Silver 33-38
Gold 39-51
Platinum 52-69

Obviously TF won't be the first LEED certified ballpark but it does have the chance to become the first Silver or higher rated ballpark. The Nationals stadium received certification.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 12:00 AM by Eric Highlight this comment 466

I have a new thought in regards to batting practice at TF. I wonder if DSP stated that the Team was going to take BP when they thought they weren't gonna make the playoffs. Now that things have tightened up, maybe they won't cause they don't want any distractions for the team prior/during this big weekend series. Maybe they will have Justin, Joe and some others take some BP after the season has ended, or when we know for sure if we are in or out. Just a thought...

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 12:04 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 467

Eric - I worked on the Nationals Stadium and did LEED submittals/paperwork for that project. I am surprised that they got their certification being that the project was completely fast tracked and lots of items/issues were literally decided on and sketched out in the field and the brought in to be incorporated into "as built drawings/documents." The project was not run very efficiently from the General Contractor side. In my opinion, that project, being fast tracked so quickly, resulted in a not so great ballpark. I worked on some of the finishes of the park and they were nothing special.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 12:12 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 468

I believe StubHub is owned by Ebay. At least Ebay bought them in early 2007

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 08:10 AM by Linc Highlight this comment 469

trosy,

Did they use any type of BIM software for the project?

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 09:09 AM by Eric Highlight this comment 470

Eric,

Being that I was just a Project Manager for a lowly subcontractor, I was not involved with any BMI software. I am not sure which program they used, as I just look at and interpret the drawings, not actually draw them or provide data/design input. The only reports that were sent to us that are related to any type of BMI would be the CPM Schedules updates, which were few and far between. They did use a web based project management software called Constructware which is used for RFI's, PR's, Schedules, etc. A lot of the work that our company performed was directed in the field and done with no formal direction via ASI, RFI, etc. It was a fly by the seat of your pants project and the bottom line reflected this. I feel we did a lot of additional work that was not part of our scope and never transmitted via proper channels to receive appropriate compensation.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 10:27 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 471

BIM....Not Body Mass Index...;-)

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 10:28 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 472

lol yes BIM = Building Information Modeling thanks for the response trosy

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 10:31 AM by Eric Highlight this comment 473

Good info everybody and thanks for the reply Faber College Alum. Should be quite a fun atmosphere tomorrow, even if I don't get in the doors.

As far as Stub Hub fees, they are pretty nuts. I bought 3 tix for the SD St game on Nov 14th. $75 per ticket (section 246, row 2). But the fees came to $22 (service fee) and $12 for shipping! Cost per ticket after fees, $86. For South Dakota State, not Iowa, not Wisconsin, not Michigan! Oh well, I'm guaranteed to see the place once, which is all I wanted I guess.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 10:50 AM by crfire163 Highlight this comment 474

Just wait until next year when USC, Ohio State, Penn State and Iowa all visit TCF Bank Stadium...I can't even imagine what the demand will be for those games.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM by Mike Highlight this comment 475

Nettings up and puttin' seats in the Champions Club.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 11:09 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 476

Forgot to mention this before, but the netting is the same kind as went into Nationals Park. I guess it's the latest in invisible netting design.

Also, I've been corrected about October 5. A source now tells me that the date is accurate. Sid got it right after all. *sigh*

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 11:11 AM by Rick 477

trosy29

It's an interesting thought, but I don't think Justin will be swinging the bat for a while.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 11:17 AM by DuluthTim Highlight this comment 478

ah...yes...mind lapse...

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 11:46 AM by trosy29 Highlight this comment 479

why would they be putting up netting already?

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 1:00 PM by tim Highlight this comment 480

Rick,

re: sid

my grandfather used to say - even a busted clock is right twice a day...

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 1:00 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 481

So, Rick --- Sid has better (or at least quicker) sources? :-)

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 1:29 PM by B.W. McEvers Highlight this comment 482

Or sometimes I'm the idiot. One of the two, or both.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 1:32 PM by Rick 483

I've started some groundwork for a ticket trading club. If you think you may be interested in joining, please send a message to:

trade at ballpark magic dod com

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 1:56 PM by Rick 484

Well --- idiot it ain't.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 2:14 PM by B.W. McEvers Highlight this comment 485

hey now, sid IS Minnesota sports, he's just old

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 3:49 PM by Deenels Highlight this comment 486

Good news! Sources at the American Legion in Richfield tell me that the old Met Stadium flag pole is set to come down next Wednesday morning. That's phase 1 of the move to Target Field. Yippee!

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 4:01 PM by Rick 487

Rick, why the *sigh about Oct. 5, otherwise known as "The Day After"?

Click my name - "The flash apparently official": home-and-home series with Gophers and Texas 2015 and 2016.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 4:22 PM by luke Highlight this comment 488

Max,

I have no problem with the average guy on the street selling tickets. What I do have a problem with is slimy scalping organizations that buy up tremendous amounts of tickets and then sell them for a killing after the venue is sold out. They are artificially creating demand with an unfair advantage in capital and time, not to mention auto-dialers and other such things not available to us peasants.

So I think scalping should be made illegal again.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 4:44 PM by David Highlight this comment 489

I'm working on a way of capturing and sharing photos and comments directly from the ballpark. It's in test mode right now and I need some test data.

Eventually you'll be able to see and respond to what people send, but it's just one-way for the moment.

So if you are going to any of the games this weekend, please text photos and comments from your phone to:

twins at ballpark magic dod com

The more different sources the better. (I guess it doesn't have to be your phone. You can send a regular email too. As always, your standard text-messaging rates will apply.)

Thanks! Win Twins! (Look for me in 222 row 1 tonight, or upper GA tomorrow.)

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 5:31 PM by Rick 490

Upper GA? That's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 9:16 PM by luke Highlight this comment 491

Luke, You can find me in the beer line Sunday ;)

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 9:43 PM by JohnF Highlight this comment 492

lol JohnF.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 9:57 PM by luke Highlight this comment 493

Brian Duensing - American Hero.

Posted on September 18, 2009 at 10:23 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 494

Oh, sorry Luke. I'll be the one in the Twins cap.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 12:24 AM by Rick 495

Rick, will you have a "Circle Me Bert" sign too? :-)

I think my wife and daughter will be in the cheap seats too on Sat. Hoping the Twins with Pavano can win another and reduce the gap to 2 games, and the magic number to 17.Duensing looked pretty good on Friday night.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 07:05 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 496

This isn't good, so far.
14-0 Cal at the end of the first.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 11:43 AM by luke Highlight this comment 497

What a hit on Decker, great job to hold on for a big score. 14-7

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 11:46 AM by Camden Highlight this comment 498

Jahvid Best had a hell of a first half - too bad he plays for Cal.
We're still in it: 21-14 Cal at the half.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 12:32 PM by luke Highlight this comment 499

From La Velle:
St. Peter, while being grilled by KSTP’s Patrick Reusse this morning, said it looks like Target Field will hold about 39,800 seats but standing room only tickets could push a full house attendance to around 41,000. A final seat total will be known by the end of the year.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 12:46 PM by Twins Territory Highlight this comment 500

It'll be interesting to see the final count. Just today, with a big matchup against Detroit, the team is expecting near 42,000 (with the U of M playing earlier).

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 12:48 PM by Twins Territory Highlight this comment 501

4th quarter is shaping up to be a good one.
21-21 going into the final quarter.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 1:23 PM by luke Highlight this comment 502

St. Peter also said this morning that they're working on some form of the "Juicy Lucy" to have at the ballpark. Confirmed that lights will go on either 10/5 or 6th, as well.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 2:48 PM by Andy G Highlight this comment 503

Damn Twins Baseball looks good on HD!

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 3:13 PM by Josh Highlight this comment 504

How about a new post and some new pictures.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 5:27 PM by NewGuy Highlight this comment 505

Twins are wringing the last of the Dome magic out of the old blue room... what a game... Cuddy with another huge homer... wow...

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 6:35 PM by CJ Highlight this comment 506

That was a nice homer. What is the countdown down to now? 6 games left at the Dumpty??

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 7:52 PM by luke Highlight this comment 507

Nice effort by the Twins today! Four games left as of Saturday evening with the son of Bob Allison taking us down from the number Five to Four this afternoon. On Sunday it should be the Killer going to numero Three. Not sure who Games Two and One will be. Any ideas?

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 8:38 PM by NotMendoza Highlight this comment 508

Maybe one of the Pohlads will take the last number off on the 4th?
Or maybe Tim Pawlenty, since he agreed to pay for the new place (he signed the legislation on the Metrodome field).
maybe one of the construction workers...

it'll be a surprise

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 8:49 PM by luke Highlight this comment 509

who needs justin and his sept slumps?? we have SUPER CUDDY!

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 9:20 PM by Mazaratirick Highlight this comment 510

Went to the Gopher game today. They definitely fixed some things from the week before.

1. The wait in line was about 5-10 minutes at most to get into Gate A and this was 20 minutes prior to kickoff. The frisking is dumb, I could have carried a Magnum 44 in the pockets of my cargo shorts and gotten through.

2.There were a couple of beverage carts at the top level of the second deck, which had minimal lines. I went to the concession stand right at the end of the first quarter. Lines were no worse than any Vikes/Twins game. In fact, I walked a little past the first crowded one I saw and only had one person in front of me at the next stand. And yes, they are still using the pad of paper, calculator and cash box to take orders. Still unbelievable to me. How do you reconcile when you have no receipts? Totally ripe for skimming cash.

3. Halftime is when you really notice that there's only one concourse serving two levels. It was wall to wall with people. We walked down from our upper deck seats to the open end zone and hung out in the plaza like area below the scoreboard.

4. Leg room is AWESOME. I'm 6'4" and had so much room. You really can walk in front of people to get to the aisle with them only having to move their feet back a little.

All in all, a great experience and obviously a great stadium. Surprised to see that the student section was not filled up (and it's a HUGE student section, which might have something to do with that) and the area I was in (upper deck, last section by the scoreboard on visitors side) had lots of open room. They announced a sellout but all us around where I was seating laughed at that.

Definitely fun to go to a "real" big time college football experience in Minneapolis.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 9:29 PM by Faber College Alum Highlight this comment 511

I don't understand the frisking thing. I went to a game in Ann Arbor last weekend and there was no frisking or lines. There were 110,000 fans and it was easy-in and easy-out. I doubt they've frisked at the dome since early 2002.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 11:23 PM by Elston Gunn Highlight this comment 512

Went to my first TCFBS game today and I need to second the overcrowded concourse comment. What a stupid design. I went for a walk and to get out of the sun at halftime (I sure love saying that!) and it took ten minutes just to move about 100 feet and the other ten minutes to return. I did not even have time to think about buying anything let alone do it. They are losing tons of money by not having enough vendors or enough space for people to move around. The game experience itself was amazing, just the shared concourse mess that really put a damper on it.

Posted on September 19, 2009 at 11:38 PM by Badjuggler Highlight this comment 513

Interesting article in the Star Tribune regarding the current credit crisis and the affect on development in the Target Field area.

I also wanted to touch on DSP's interview this morning on KSTP AM...I thought it was a good interview to allow fans to call in and directly ask DSP questions. It definitely sounds like the Twins are going to have "many opportunities" for fans to visit Target Field prior to the April 12 Home Opener. It sounds like they are planning on several open house types of events throughout the month of March in addition to the exhibition games on April 2 and 3. He also mentioned some college games possibly being played there prior to the Twins first game.

Found it interesting how the Twins are concerned about inflated concession prices and have done a lot of research regarding prices. DSP claims the prices will be similar to other in-market teams/venues, which only makes sense. Obviously it won't fly in Minnesota to charge New York prices, so it only makes sense to do some extensive market research.

Posted on September 20, 2009 at 12:01 AM by Mike Highlight this comment 514

They still frisk at Vikings games, and that's a league-wide policy. Even so, a guy could just about walk a howitzer through the gate without any trouble. All it serves to do is slow up the lines at the gate. Maybe they do it to encourage fans to arrive much earlier to avoid long lines at the gate. And while they're there so early, they might as well eat something. Could it be that the policy isn't so much about security as it is about having a captive concessions market there as long as possible?

Posted on September 20, 2009 at 01:21 AM by Winona Mike Highlight this comment 515

It did not occur to me that a bigger single concourse may not actually be more space than two smaller concourses. That would be an interesting square-footage calculation. (At Target Field there will still be two concourses.)

And when I was frisked, I wasn't actually thinking about what kind of weapon I could get through (though a lot of possibilities would have gone undetected). I was thinking how easy it would have been to stuff a beer or flask into my sock.

The truth is that frisking is just a scare tactic -- that works. If somebody knows they will be frisked, they are much less likely to try anything.

I don't like it, but I understand it.

Posted on September 20, 2009 at 01:31 AM by Rick 516

Well unless your a hardend criminal that doesn't give a ****. BUt I can attest to the Vikings Frisking peope. My brother saw Franken getting a nice rub down at a game last year.

Posted on September 20, 2009 at 01:42 AM by Camden Highlight this comment 517

Just another thought (or 2). Is the frisking a one time thing perhaps? For the grand opener with all kinds of vips? Maybe not, but would be a good reason for it. (Or a reason), also with the frisking how hard would it be to just shove something in your crotch. (Didn't athlete do that and it fired on them, maybe it was Plaxico, but I thought he hit his leg)

Posted on September 20, 2009 at 01:44 AM by Camden Highlight this comment 518

What a game!! My wife, daughter and I were there in the left field cheap seats, and I had a feeling Kubel would make Verlander pay for i-walking Mauer. And then Cuddy follows up with a 3 run HR!

Posted on September 20, 2009 at 08:28 AM by Dan Highlight this comment 519

Went to the game too Faber College Alum. Spectacular. I parked in DT Mpls for $3, rode the bike over, toured campus for the 1st time in 17 years, had 3 beers at S&H, parked the bike right outside the front gates, and I finally bought a ticket 30 minutes prior to kick-off for ....$10. Face value of $50. I turned down offers of $125, $75, $50, and $40 and I come across a guy with a ticket and he says "$10, just cheer for the Gophers". Upper deck 20-yard line, row 8. Sat there through the entire 1st quarter and then moved around the entire stadium the rest of the game with zero resistance from the ushers.

I never should have paid $86 apiece in advance for the SD St game. Really dumb on my part because there are opportunities galore outside the stadium, with no service fees or shipping charges.

The best part of the game was when there were 2 bald eagles sighted flying high above TCF. If that doesn't say "this ain't the dome anymore" I don't know what does.

And I know we will have our share of rain and cold, but I couldn't help but to think how incredible it will be to watch a Twins game next summer in similar weather as the Gopher game (80, sunny, mild breeze).

Posted on September 20, 2009 at 1:26 PM by crfire163 Highlight this comment 520

Cefire163,

good job and i thank you for holding out.. i see so many fans pay way to much for tickets to the first scalper they see thinking the joint (dome or tcf) is sold out ... if you shop around you will get agood deal... there are open seats to every game per the scalpers buy up the tix and sell them.. well there is no always a market for the sale wich means they get stuck with the loss ... people just hold out a bit you can save 80 % on a twins game after the 1st inning and as fire shoed us you can save the same on a gophs game if you just shop aound,, they get scaed and have to dump them....

i have seen out of townwers pay 100 bucks for a 35$ tickt to the dome for a twins game... then the scalper sells the same tix for 5 bucks to me after first pitch....

im just saying there is a way to beat the scalpers, stubhub and ticket king... create your own market... it works.. i am unemployed but have been to 26 twins games this year.. you dont do that with good looks!

Posted on September 20, 2009 at 9:23 PM by Mazaaratirick Highlight this comment 521

**but it does help!

Posted on September 20, 2009 at 11:24 PM by Mazaaratirick Highlight this comment 522

maz - so that wasn't you on the cover of the latest GQ magazine? huh!

;-)

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 12:14 AM by Betaband Highlight this comment 523

WHEN WILL WE SEE MORE PHOTOS AND INFO ABOUT TARGET FIELD?

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 07:13 AM by Tommy Highlight this comment 524

Dud - indoor voice.

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 07:44 AM by strategery Highlight this comment 525

Dave St. Peter must have taken over updating this blog.

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 11:22 AM by Jim Highlight this comment 526

Ouch.

Lots going on behind the scenes here, and a new post is almost ready.

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 11:26 AM by Rick 527

(Actually, about 10 are in progress, as well as some new features for the site -- mentioned above...)

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 11:28 AM by Rick 528

Patience.

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 12:21 PM by robin Highlight this comment 529

Just excited to see the next post. I am a big fan of the site!

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 12:24 PM by Jim Highlight this comment 530

I'll admit I laughed out loud when I read that-

Dave St. Peter must have taken over updating this blog.

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 12:36 PM by JCTwins Highlight this comment 531

Anyone have an idea what they are unloading from the semi? More seats?

cam 1, 1:00pm

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 1:21 PM by DreDogg Highlight this comment 532

The natives are restless Rick. Satisfy the craving...

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 1:38 PM by Max Highlight this comment 533

Here's the link to the new MBA album for those that missed it. I'm liking up upper deck shots from near my seats.

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 1:50 PM by Camden Highlight this comment 534

Max is right. If I don't see a new post by 3 p.m., I'm going off on Gopher fans. I've been biting my tongue for soooooo long.....

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 2:33 PM by The Truth Hurts Highlight this comment 535

Or maybe Tim Pawlenty, since he agreed to pay for the new place (he signed the legislation on the Metrodome field).

HE isnt paying a damn cent he is a cheap SOB......how he veto'd the last budget or whatever and is self imposing his own policies......get this guy out as soon as possible.....

Frank Quilici was #1 I think or was he #2?

Posted on September 21, 2009 at 11:00 PM by BW Highlight this comment 536


This page was last modified on September 3, 2009.



"You talk about the magic, the aura, but what really makes a stadium is the fans. Concrete doesn't talk back to you. Chairs don't talk back to you. It's the people who are there, day in, day out, that makes the place magic."

– Bernie Williams

Explore the Site

Here are 50 images chosen randomly from the 3045 found on this site. Click the image to be taken to the original post. A new list is created every 10 minutes.





Packed SRO beneath the notch.



Staircase view









You won't see much sky from these seats, but you'll always be warm



I still counted 11 flag poles...



The first completed mural



Carew atrium menu part 2



Pile driving in progress



Signage for the concession stand which is available from the plaza (plaques are up on the fencing)



Some of Minneapolis' finest checking out the construction through a spot where a knothole will be one day.






A mural featuring the names of a bunch of Minnesota towns.



Revised outfield configuration (courtesy HOK Sport)



Detail of the train tunnels (click to view the entire drawing)






Intersection overview






This view, from the Minnekahda building (or possibly a predecessor), looks toward the right field corner. The City Market, at left, occupied the land where the B ramp and Target Plaza now stand (over I-394). And the Overlook now juts out just a little beyond where that driveway enters the railyard.









I didn't check the menu too closely, but it looks like all the standard fare is available, and not much of the non-standard stuff.



TC caps everywhere! (Is that you?)



Miller Park: Gymnasium with skylight (Source: RP)






Giant screened images! (573 Club, my back to Seventh Ave windows)



This is the entrance behind home plate (not visible in the renderings which have been released). It shows that the upper deck is set back from the facade -- a very good thing if it remains in the final design.



CBP: retro in facade only



Fan number 3,030,673 came through this gate a few moments after I took this picture.



The base of the old Met Stadium flagpole. (The plaque refers to the "Flame of Freedom" and not the origin of the pole.)



The Hrbek gate is directly below. It's a lively place after a game.



What has been actually built so far is only a tiny subset of this vision.



This is during halftime.



This is very early in the day.



I could gaze at this streetscape all day. It isn't perfect, but as a model for Minneapolis, I love it. (Except the Biff, of course. Click to enlarge.)



I know you've seen this, but I can't get enough of it.



Bird's-eye view of the trees



Mary Larson (left), a music teacher from Maple Grove, was a TwinsFest SSB winner and got to sing the anthem before the game.



Some baseball legends (and Ron Coomer)



For $19.95 you can load up your plate (one trip only)



If you want, you can ask those folks how the game is going -- and even get a little bit of info from the big screen (Grandstand)












Good seats, but no scoreboard or sky.



Twins in HD on the big board






The Metrodome is converted to its football configuration after the Twins game on August 29, 2002





Glossary

BPM - Ballpark Magic

BRT - Bus Rapid Transit

DSP - Dave St. Peter

FSE - Full Season Equivalent

FYS - Fake Yankee Stadium (see also: NYS)

HERC - Hennepin Energy Resource Company (aka the Garbage Burner)

HPB - Home Plate Box

HRP - Home Run Porch

LC - Legends Club

LRT - Light Rail Transit

MBA - Minnesota Ballpark Authority (will own Target Field)

MOA - Mall of America

MSFC - Minnesota Sports Facilities Commission (owns the Metrodome)

NYS - New Yankee Stadium

SRO - Standing Room Only

STH - Season Ticket Holder

TCFBS - TCF Bank Stadium

TF - Target Field

Selected Bibliography - Analysis
 


(1993)
 


First Edition (1992)
 


Second Edition (2006)
 


(2008)
 

Selected Bibliography - Surveys
 


(1975)
 


Second Edition (1987)
 


Not a "Third Edition" exactly,
but it replaced the above title
(2000)
 


(2000, large coffee table)
 


Original edition (2000, round)
 


Revised edition (2006, round)
 


(2001, medium coffee table)
 


(2002, small coffee table)
 


(2003, medium coffee table)
 


(2004, very large coffee table)
 


(2006, very large coffee table)
 


Combines the previous two titles
(2007, medium coffee table)
 

Selected Bibliography - Nostalgia
 


(1992)
 


Book and six ballpark miniatures
(2004)
 

Complete Bibliography

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